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  1. #91
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @Zero,

    If the purpose of the Village had to do with guiding the reincarnation of the SO6P, then you'd think that all Hokages would have had some super secrete document that described the Rinnegan, or some other trait.

    It strikes me as somewhat incongruous that the Village was very uninterested in Nagato, nor did they attempt to communicate with him once his identity was known. Sure the circumstances were hostile, but the village heads did not seem to have any indication of expectation when it came to the Rinnegan.


    About Hashirama being Overpowered, I Just LOVE IT. We really should have an Overpowered GOD of Shinobi, or else he wouldn't be a "God".
    The thing is, it is unlikely that So6p's reincarnation would had Rinnegan, or so it seems. Perhaps the Senju and the Uchiha joined hands, to allow his eventual reincarnation in the future (he still would need the genes of both clans), but they soon found out that it's not going to happen (there was simply too much hate and strife between those clans). Still just because he wouldn't have his original powers, it wouldn't mean that a savior wouldn't be born. Even the 4th Raikage considered Minato a savior at some point and well, they (the cloud village) have the best ties to So6p after Konoha.

    Of course, Rinnegan was born indeed, but as a complete power that it is, it could do both, destroy and create. It is quite obvious that this time, it's purpose is destruction. Not to mention that there is even the prophecy, speaking about the savior (well it does seem that Raikage knew about it, since he mentioned Minato as Jiraya's pupil, when naming him savior. He might have heard about it from Jiraya).

    We have to remember that there are things that only Hokages knew (beside Tsunad, probably ). The third even mentions that Itachi after obtaining knowledge about his ancestor, had wisdom on Hokage's level, with seems to imply that Hokage knew a lot about the past as well.


    Still, Hashirama might simply answer that village was created to end constant wars and bring peace. When other clans started doing the same, the two most important people in the village had different visions of the future. This probably comes down to the same thing as it was between Older and Younger brother. Madara probably wanted to dominate them all and create a constant state of peace under Konoha's rule, but Hashirama probably wanted everyone to get along. Kishi already showed that were Hashirama searched for cooperation on equal terms, Madara desired total domination (you can see that clearly in Onoki's flashbacks about Madara).

    As to why Ninja were born, well So6p desired peace and thus he was teaching others his ways. It wouldn't be strange that Shinobi indeed existed to help build that peace.

  2. #92
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    ...............

    As to why Ninja were born, well So6p desired peace and thus he was teaching others his ways. It wouldn't be strange that Shinobi indeed existed to help build that peace.
    I don't know how Kishimoto is going to take the story, but with the reappearance of Hashirama and Minato, he has potentially given himself an opening for a fun ride. I do hope that Kishi uses the revival of Hashirama, Minato, and the others to make Naruto even more interesting as we move along.

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  3. #93
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    The SO6P seems to be all about "balance"... giving the Bijuu consciousness to determine right / wrong (and thus use their power justly) as well as giving humanity the power of Ninjutsu to take care of itself. Hashirama probably saw the village system (and Bijuu distribution among villages) as a means of establishing peace within the warring factions within humanity, but it was short-sighted... as we've seen, he went against the SO6P's will by imprisoning the Kyuubi (albeit to prevent incidents like the Kyuubi attack, which Madara started).

    What is more, the village system (and the hatred that stems from Shinobi placing the security of the village above all else, as with the policies of Tobirama/Danzou/Chiyo) has lead to the cycle of hatred within the Shinobi world, exemplified by the Uchiha, who have both born the brunt of that hatred and worked the hardest to perpetuate it (in both cases due to their superior power, unfortunately).

    I wouldn't be surprised if Sasuke ends up on a mission to end the village system, seeing the existence of Shinobi as something which will inevitably lead to conflict, as they are, in the end, tools of war, and will constantly inflict pain on others by definition. Maybe he'll seek to use his own power to destroy them (peace through power), in opposition to Naruto's "peace through love" ideology in which people can reach an understanding.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ I wouldn't be so sure about that. We already have 2 powerful Uchiha that wants to bring peace through power, while currently we are missing the lone Uchiha that seems to always exist within the clan, standing on the good side, a nameless shinobi proving himself worthy through self-sacrifice for the good of all. Izuna was one like that, his sacrifice gave power to their leader, thanks to which the clan survived and eventually allowed to form peace with the Senju (if they were weaker, they might been simply annihilated), albeit, later on it had an opposite effect . Shisui was like that. Obito for awhile. Then Itachi and now it is time for Sasuke. Then again, if Obito were to return to the good side, the spot for the evil Uchiha would be waiting for Sasuke (assuming that Madara would have been already defeated at that time).

    Hashirama was quite happily shocked that the Village survived up till now. Perhaps the village system from the very beginning was a temporary thing, or perhaps there really is a special meaning to it. Tobirama was quite fixated on protecting it using whatever means were possible, although that might have been because it was somewhat a memento of his brother.

    In a way, the village system and the existence of shinobi, seem to make it easy for shinobi to take over the world and bring peace through force. IIRC, most people in narutoverse are unable to use ninjutsu or chakra, so if the shinobi banded together, normal people wouldn't even stand a chance. Let's face it, it is because of the normal people (whole countries) that shinobi have to fight. It's normal people that pay to kill or protect someone/something. Sure there is all that hate and resentment within their world, but it is still money that fuels war to the point were there can't be peace. In the end, shinobi are still mercenaries for hire, unless they change their fights into some sports competition and decide what to do upon who wins, then I don't see how war can be erased for good. Well, maybe if they formed their own country and separated themselves from normal people (they can pretty much produce almost everything with their chakra and their searching methods are far superior compared to normal people), thought they might need to eventually ride other countries for living space, or other things.

  5. #95
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Don't forget that Hashirama's Village system might have worked Had not Madara gone and screwed it up from the start, yeah..Let's add the Kin and Gin brothers to the screwers.

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  6. #96
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    given that minato could pass out so many ftg seals to a trench full of shinobi, perhaps he stocked up on some other things too. would frog oil have worked outside the mountain? i don't want to stress workarounds and there was no sign of sage energy channeling through his body at the time he redirected the bijuudama.. it just goes to show that even though i totally believe he qualified to be a sage, even beyond jiraya's level.. the fact that he was never confirmed a sage shows you how boss minato really was to have dealt with suge huge amounts of hostile chakra at one time by using the output of his own energy.

    as far as controlling chakra goes, i would say minato is pretty much at the top. if that is more palatable to some then wouldn't that be as impressive, if not more than simply having large stores of chakra?

    what are some other examples of impressive feats of chakra to compare to minato's ftg the kyubi's chakra twice (beast bomb then entire bidy) as well as the strength to yank the kyubi's yin chakra (dead demon seal doesn't do all the work, as sarutobi found out).

    i'd like to get a contrasting scale to put minato where he belongs because he is more often downplayed when my impression has always been the opposite. there is very little in the way of impressive chakra coping and relrase above ftg use when tobi attacked. above that you have pein's moon (meh), dust release (three elements! ) madara's susanoo, hashirama's mokuton. this is all non bijuu non sage conventional human chakra.
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  7. #97
    i love jesus christ enochdickson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    given that minato could pass out so many ftg seals to a trench full of shinobi, perhaps he stocked up on some other things too. would frog oil have worked outside the mountain? i don't want to stress workarounds and there was no sign of sage energy channeling through his body at the time he redirected the bijuudama.. it just goes to show that even though i totally believe he qualified to be a sage, even beyond jiraya's level.. the fact that he was never confirmed a sage shows you how boss minato really was to have dealt with suge huge amounts of hostile chakra at one time by using the output of his own energy.

    as far as controlling chakra goes, i would say minato is pretty much at the top. if that is more palatable to some then wouldn't that be as impressive, if not more than simply having large stores of chakra?

    what are some other examples of impressive feats of chakra to compare to minato's ftg the kyubi's chakra twice (beast bomb then entire bidy) as well as the strength to yank the kyubi's yin chakra (dead demon seal doesn't do all the work, as sarutobi found out).

    i'd like to get a contrasting scale to put minato where he belongs because he is more often downplayed when my impression has always been the opposite. there is very little in the way of impressive chakra coping and relrase above ftg use when tobi attacked. above that you have pein's moon (meh), dust release (three elements! ) madara's susanoo, hashirama's mokuton. this is all non bijuu non sage conventional human chakra.
    I am actually wondering are you kishimoto in disguise! lol ... You are so indepth in the story .. and i find it interesting to read your conversations..

    Out of the Box - I would prefer a Manga named Minato with Minato progress and missions and herosim ..
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  8. #98
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    @Knife, I can tell you that Minato's chakra pool is probably on similar level to what Kakashi had (slightly power upped by the Kyubi) when he was teleporting 8-tails. Teleporting a whole bijuu seem to take tool on both of them, although in Kakashi's case, his limited compatibility takes additional tool on him, but you have to remember that Kakashi had to first send the bijuu into other dimension and then teleport it back. It can be probably compared to the chakra used in Minato's fight with Tobi + sending the bijuudama and then the whole Kyubi with the bijuudama. Yes Minato did much more than Kakashi, but he simply has better compatibility with his jutsu.

    Strangely enough, summoning or unsummoning something, or even an animal of similar size to a bijuu, takes much less chakra than other space-time jutsu that teleports them. The creator of the summoning jutsu must have been quite a genius to make it so effective and low chakra cost compared to other S-T jutsu of that caliber. Assuming that the blood works only as a marker and that the summoning animal doesn't give a little of it's own chakra when being summoned.

  9. #99
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    To me, teleporting a large creature with FTG is probably about the same thing as summoning them with a regular Summoning Jutsu. If that took a significant toll on Minato, I wouldn't peg him as a "Chakra Beast" like Naruto/Kisame/etc. He's all about finesse. To me, he represents the highest level of power for a ninja with no special bloodline and no substantial chakra capacity.

  10. #100
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    To me, teleporting a large creature with FTG is probably about the same thing as summoning them with a regular Summoning Jutsu. If that took a significant toll on Minato, I wouldn't peg him as a "Chakra Beast" like Naruto/Kisame/etc. He's all about finesse. To me, he represents the highest level of power for a ninja with no special bloodline and no substantial chakra capacity.
    Wasn't it stated somewhere that only Madara could summon the Kyuubi, if that is true would it be some kind of contract (willing or unwilling), or whether the Kyuubi's chakra just somehow interferes with the summoning attempt.

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