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  1. #51
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Spoiler!
    Or Madara doesn't have Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi. Susano seems to be the universal end-technique for all MS users, but what two abilities either eye grants individually doesn't seem to be the same for every Uchiha (as we now have definitive proof thanks to Obito). Seems only Itachi and Sasuke are the exceptions here.

  2. #52
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afro Thunda View Post
    Or Madara doesn't have Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi. Susano seems to be the universal end-technique for all MS users, but what two abilities either eye grants individually doesn't seem to be the same for every Uchiha (as we now have definitive proof thanks to Obito). Seems only Itachi and Sasuke are the exceptions here.
    Yeah, this is my take on it as well. It'd be nice if we knew Izuna's MS techniques so we could confirm whether or not siblings tend to have some MS abilities in common. Also, I'd like to see whether or not Sasuke gained Itachi's powers (such as Tsukuyomi and the Totsuka Blade).

    It seems odd that when others transplant an Uchiha's eyes, they inherit the abilities of that Uchiha (even in the case of Obito, who is an Uchiha simply lost his original eye). However, in the case of the EMS, it simply acts as a refresher for the sibling's previous MS (and takes on the appearance of a fusion, complete with increased potency).

  3. #53
    Senior Member Lakritze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    edo tensei confirmed to be cast with ability to lessen or limit the power of the summoned. sarutobi indeed fought watered down versions of hashirama and tobirama. case is finally closed!
    Yes, it's closed. But I didn't think it was because Orochimaru lacked the skills. Theoretically, that could even mean that Madara is brought back at 99 % of his powers (although Kabuchimaru said Madara is now even stronger than in his prime, so I might be wrong on this one).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    Orochimaru is definitely on the "soon-to-be-redeemed" list, even more so than Obito.
    I fear as much. Kishi seems to plan on redeeming everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximo View Post
    I wonder, is it possible for Minato to use his speed and try something on Orochimaru ? I guess this depends wheter he needs his special kunais for the body flicker or not. If not then I would say he could possibly take Orochimaru by surprise and make some jutsu similiar to the one he performed on Tobi, when he ended his summoning contract, that would end his binding spell.
    I think he does, that's why I am surprised Oro didn't at least restrict Minato's movements from the very beginning. Actually, the Kages are not the type of guys who would make such use of ET, but Minato would have the occasion so see his son kick some ass and watch his hopes - Kurama and Naruto - have come true. So Minato is as good as on his way to the battlefield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Minato doesn't have to be a sensor ninja, remember, Naruto is pumping out so much power even non-sensors can detect it.
    Exactly. I wouldn't read too much into the sensor-thing. Naruto is his son, and he sealed half of Kurama into himself, so I can accept him being able to recognize Kuruto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Majere View Post
    Personally i think that the Naruto vs Sasuke fight, will be the last thing to happen in the manga, in a friendly environment, like the fight that Goku and Vegeta wanted in the DBZ ending, due to the fact that alot of things are revolving around Sasuke's redemption and to put the end at the Uchiha "curse".
    That would also be my bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntman_exe View Post
    This chapter confirmed that yet another thing Hashirama's cells are useful for is Edo Tensei whether it's for strengthening the binding power or resisting it as Hashirama did. It's no wonder Madara and Orochimaru love the shit out of his cells, they're useful for so many things it seems.
    Yes, too many, if you ask me.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Lakritze's Avatar
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    Am I the only one who found it strange to look into a normal set of eyes of a super-strong shinobi (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/620/17). ET-eyes, Naruto's Kurama-eyes, Naruto's sage-eyes, Sharingan (Kakashi, Obito, etc.), MS, EMS, Rinnegan, Byakugan, Guy's white eyes (while he is in Hachimon-Tonkou, third gate/life gate)... It's good to see that normal eyes can be helpful from time to time.

    By the way: Does anyone have a good explanation, why Hashirama isn't just immune to Amaterasu (if Madara can use it, what I believe), and perhaps to Tsukyomi (if Madara can use it), but at least to Genjutsu? It was even enough to corner Pain.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakritze View Post
    By the way: Does anyone have a good explanation, why Hashirama isn't just immune to Amaterasu (if Madara can use it, what I believe), and perhaps to Tsukyomi (if Madara can use it), but at least to Genjutsu? It was even enough to corner Pain.
    Dunno about amaterasu, but it seems that Hashirama has a lot of chakra to dissipate the genjutsu.

  6. #56
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakritze View Post

    By the way: Does anyone have a good explanation, why Hashirama isn't just immune to Amaterasu (if Madara can use it, what I believe), and perhaps to Tsukyomi (if Madara can use it), but at least to Genjutsu? It was even enough to corner Pain.

    Hashirama's immunity is just a guess, however...

    Since the Sharingan originates from the Juubi, AND Mokuton can be used to control the Juubi (also it weakens and binds tailed beast which also originate from the Juubi), THEN it's a good guess that Hashirama's Mokuton will also weaken, dissipate, or absorb the Chakra away, from Sharingan techniques like Amaterasu.

    Even if it's only a guess, it a pretty logical guess in my opinion.

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  7. #57
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    @lakritze, i never put into question orochimaru's skills. if my post was confusing then apologies. my point was orochimaru intentionally limited the power of hashirama and tobirama when summoned against sarutobi. it would been too dangerous to give them full power in such tight enclosed space. you do not summon "redraw the maps" type of shinobi into a cupbard! oro was ignorant of a few things then, dds for one, but he was no fool. regulating their power in the barrier was smart and who is to say that once he succeeded in defeating sarutobi as he planned, that he could not then boost their power to their natural levels once outside the barrier and in konaha village proper? that's my understanding and opinion. orochimaru had excellent skills, the dds that sealed his arms and the kages was the perfect trump and couldn't have known it.

    @paulbee, zetsu's are weak because they lack a clear will to drive their capabilities. will of fire considerably affects leaf ninjas and their power. zetsu's, having no will or nothing and noone to fight for prevents all sorts of developments. i thought about your question many times after seeing the differences in mokuton behavior after obito's flashback. it takes will and motivation and feelings to develop power. strong feelings cause sharingan and the more powerful feelings become the more powerful sharingan becomes, eventually waking ms. strong will is what brought jiraya back from the dead to carry out one last heroic action, allowed ooniki tsuchikage to get back on his feet for a grand dust jutsu and is what got tsunade toe to toe with madara. of course good old fashioned training and practice is necessary but is zetsu even motivated to do that? zetsu seems to be lacking too many factors that define a shinobi especially a complete will of its own. black zetsu was but a fraction of madara's resigned will and the whites, now seemingly goofy because hashirama was goofy (illustrated past 2 chapters) ..while inheriting some signature hashirama petsonality traits, they dont have all of his personality, ideals, or anything that drives a person to become powerful. they seem to be more like tools of shinobi, ala jutsu, and not shinobi themselves. it was obito's determination and constant training that allowed him to increase mokuton ability, making zetsu a conduit of sorts. the actual hashirama splicing seems different as it behaves as a symbiotic component reflective of hashirama during a certain state of his power (sloppy reasoning) whereas zetsu is not symbiotic but instead more of a true integration. maybe symbiotic is incorrect term but orochimaru/kabuto splices are not true integrations like madara/tobi's gedou bloomed clones.
    _____
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    @ Artifice,

    As I understood from Itachi, The Eyes that has Awaken Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu gets Susanoo.

    Spoiler!


    I think it's impossible for Madara to have Susanoo without having Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.

    I'd like to suggest a reason why Madara never used Amaterasu against Hashirama. There can be ONLY ONE REASON:- Amaterasu doesn't work on Mokuton

    This is only a guess right now, but if Mokuton somehow Binds Tailed beasts, and Controls the Juubi, AND, IF the Juubi is the source of the Sharingan, THEN Mokuton may be immune to the Amaterasu Flames assuming that Amaterasu is also derived from the Juubi.

    Madara may have used it or tried it on Hashirama in one of their Early fights before the VOTE. If it doesn't work, Madara is not the type to waste Chakra on a jutsu that's ineffective (Unlike Naruto, lol).
    In that spoiler, Itachi mentions that all 3 of his jutsu awakened at the same time (I guess that's a genius for you), he didn't need to master the previous 2 to have it. Later on, Sasuke mentions that after mastering both of his MS jutsu (Amaterasu and Kagetsuchi), he awakened Susano, or perhaps rather realized that he could use it.

    After the transplant, Sasuke can still use Amaterasu separately, but it seems that he no longer can use Kagetsuchi without Susanoo, since Itachi himself didn't have that jutsu. This might mean, that after transplanting and overriding the eyes (for Uchiha bros), you loose jutsu that weren't compatible, or rather the same as from the person you took the eyes. This might be the reason why transplanting MS and turning it into EMS, rarely worked.

    In short, the reason why Madara can only use Susanoo, might be because the other 2 jutsu were not the same as his brothers (so he lost them, although parts of them might have left their imprint on his Susanoo, since the Susanoo does seem to be build upon the previous 2 jutsu). From his Susanoo alone, you can notice that he can't use Amaterasu (which seems to be the source of Susanoo's shield, at least it does seem that way for Sauke and Itachi, seeing as it is the only jutsu that they have sheered beside Susanno). You can notice that Amaterasu form the shield, while their other jutsu, Tsukuyomi and Kagetsuchi, form Susanoo's final weapons (their swords), for Itachi and Sasuke respectively.

    I guess this means that the eyes don't combine, but are overridden. The capabilities of the new eyes are limited to what the same jutsu the previous and current user could use. For example, if Izuna's two other jutsu were genjutsu type only, and Madara's ninjutsu, then of course he couldn't use them with Izuna's eyes that are specified for genjutsu and neither could use Izuna's, since Sharingan cannot copy bloodline limits (MS is like a bloodline, within a bloodline limit).

  9. #59
    Senior Member Lakritze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Hashirama's immunity is just a guess, however...

    Since the Sharingan originates from the Juubi, AND Mokuton can be used to control the Juubi (also it weakens and binds tailed beast which also originate from the Juubi), THEN it's a good guess that Hashirama's Mokuton will also weaken, dissipate, or absorb the Chakra away, from Sharingan techniques like Amaterasu.

    Even if it's only a guess, it a pretty logical guess in my opinion.
    Sounds convincing. Maybe that's even part of his great chakra-reserves: He absorbs it from others and other jutsus. I was always wondering how Hashirama was able to withstand Madara AND Kurama (and their chakra-reserves). He may have great chakra, but that he has more chakra than Madara and Kurama together seems a bit too much. And absorbing chakra is an art of the Rinnegan and, thus, from the Rikudou-Sennin. So it makes sense that Hashirama had it.

    That would also explain why the wood-technique is feared that much. At the very beginning, I thought it's little more than an earth-technique (when it comes to manipulating the ground), and sand seemed even more effective to me than wood. However, if it were known that wood has also chakra-absorbing-capabilities, it would be far more convincing, why it was considered so great.

    That makes me wonder whether Kisame was a Senju, too (water-technique as the Tobi-brothers, great chakra-reserves and chakra-absorbing-prowess), but maybe that would stretch it a bit. But, hell, who would have Karin expected to be an Uzumaki. So why not.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ Well, rather than a Senju for certain, he might have been just one of the So6p's descendants. The Silver and Gold brothers are mentioned just like that, without specifying from which descendant (the younger or the older brother) they came.


    Anyway, is it me, or have Tobirama experimented on the Uchiha ? He seems to know way too much, with way too detailed background images and workings of their brains. To even mention that he has seen it countless time, yet strangely enough, no one else knew about it and there was no mention of it, to the point that even Oro didn't seem to know about it. Yep, he might have been, no, he probably was a mad scientist as well. After all, how many people had he sacrificed, before completing Edo Tensei to an usable point/state ?

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