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  1. #81
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I get the sense that Either Frog Sage Mode is fundamentaly different from the Snake/Dragon Sage mode, or Kabuto was only able to pull it off because he had stolen Juugo's cells and ability.

    As for Tsunade, I suspect that she may have had the neccessary chakra levels for frog Sage mode. Tsunade is really a chakra beast (IMO), Also consider that Tsunade is Hashirama's and Mito's grand daughter. She certainly has some impressive Senju/Uzumaki pedigree.

    Hope kishi gives us more info as to Who is related to Whom. I'd like to know if Minato is somehow connected to the Senju/Tsunade, or to whomever.

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  2. #82
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I get the sense that Either Frog Sage Mode is fundamentaly different from the Snake/Dragon Sage mode, or Kabuto was only able to pull it off because he had stolen Juugo's cells and ability.

    As for Tsunade, I suspect that she may have had the neccessary chakra levels for frog Sage mode. Tsunade is really a chakra beast (IMO), Also consider that Tsunade is Hashirama's and Mito's grand daughter. She certainly has some impressive Senju/Uzumaki pedigree.

    Hope kishi gives us more info as to Who is related to Whom. I'd like to know if Minato is somehow connected to the Senju/Tsunade, or to whomever.
    did kabuto actually take juugo's cells like he did suigetsu's and karin's? i thought he merely studied and experimented short of putting into his own body. having found the source of juugo's ability (and the clan) he went straight to the source an teained there to gain the ability for himself, not merely stealing juugo's traits and the version of the ability dictated by those personal traits. kabuto's sennin transformation is noticeably different than juugo's rage outs and the many cursed seal results.

    however, i do agree that there are differences in sage modes/arts that oroginate from the mystical level. natural energy must vary in shades of the many different essesnces to relate to the outward circumstances they flourish. frog and snake style of sage energy use may be as different as elementally composed chakras, producing different results and impacting immediate environment differently. not to mention ethical and spiritual values being likely fundamental in sage arts beyond the mystical platform it arises.

    i guess it doesn't matter if kabuto had juugo's cells or not. his dragon sennin is expression of kabuto and his personal energies, not simply a product of a harnessed ability he stole.

    edit: the past couple of chapter discussions here have personally the most rewarding listening. so much is starting to come together and people have much more established ideas to base new ones. with so much solid ground developed since pein arc its been a blast listening to everyone's ideas come out based on a detail they noticed dozens or hundreds of chapters ago. not to mention there is still just as much room to argue and disagree as there ever was. dont ruin it kishimoto! :0
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  3. #83
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Kabuto was able to enter Snake Sage Mode because of the cells he integrated, I believe. He even claimed that Orochimaru never achieved a body capable of a complete Sage Mode, so Kabuto had surpassed him in that regard. Not sure I understand why Orochimaru didn't do the same, especially when Orochimaru seems to have more knowledge than anyone when it comes to using Natural Energy.

  4. #84
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    did kabuto actually take juugo's cells like he did suigetsu's and karin's? i thought he merely studied and experimented short of putting into his own body. having found the source of juugo's ability (and the clan) he went straight to the source an teained there to gain the ability for himself, not merely stealing juugo's traits and the version of the ability dictated by those personal traits. kabuto's sennin transformation is noticeably different than juugo's rage outs and the many cursed seal results.

    however, i do agree that there are differences in sage modes/arts that oroginate from the mystical level. natural energy must vary in shades of the many different essesnces to relate to the outward circumstances they flourish. frog and snake style of sage energy use may be as different as elementally composed chakras, producing different results and impacting immediate environment differently. not to mention ethical and spiritual values being likely fundamental in sage arts beyond the mystical platform it arises.

    i guess it doesn't matter if kabuto had juugo's cells or not. his dragon sennin is expression of kabuto and his personal energies, not simply a product of a harnessed ability he stole.

    edit: the past couple of chapter discussions here have personally the most rewarding listening. so much is starting to come together and people have much more established ideas to base new ones. with so much solid ground developed since pein arc its been a blast listening to everyone's ideas come out based on a detail they noticed dozens or hundreds of chapters ago. not to mention there is still just as much room to argue and disagree as there ever was. dont ruin it kishimoto! :0
    I went back and re-read chapter 579 (Mangapanda). Kabuto never said literally that he transplanted the cells from Karin, Suigetsu, or Juugo. What he said in each case was that he got certain abilities after study their bodies.

    Sasuke directly stated or asked..."It seems you posses the same ability as Juugo", Kabuto did not confirm or deny it. What is clear in the exchange is that While Orochimaru could not "find the right kind of body" for becoming a Sage, Kabuto did.

    In other words you need to have a special kind of body to become a sage, AT LEAST, This is the case for Kabuto's Sage Version.

    I am not sure if Kabuto meant the above for any and all Sage Modes, or If you ned the right kind of body for gathering Sage energy while moving. I suspect that the Uniqueness of Juugo is that he can absorb natural energy while moving.

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  5. #85
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that obtaining Sasuke would allow Oro to enter SSM, seeing as Sasuke is only a replacement for Kimimaro, who was one of the few people (3: Sasuke, Jyuugo, Kimamaro), that could freely control CS and do partial transformations. Jyugo's clan called CS Transformation, a Senjutsu Transformation after all. Besides, Oro himself has experience and can use senjutsu (CS are filled with his senjutsu chakra), a more compatible body seems to be enough for him.

    It's worth mentioning that indifference to FSA, CS's side effect is madness/craziness and even death, perhaps from your mind shattering. It's quite possible that CS, being based upon SSA, have the same side effects as SSA.

  6. #86
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    I'm pretty sure that obtaining Sasuke would allow Oro to enter SSM, seeing as Sasuke is only a replacement for Kimimaro, who was one of the few people (3: Sasuke, Jyuugo, Kimamaro), that could freely control CS and do partial transformations. Jyugo's clan called CS Transformation, a Senjutsu Transformation after all. Besides, Oro himself has experience and can use senjutsu (CS are filled with his senjutsu chakra), a more compatible body seems to be enough for him.

    It's worth mentioning that indifference to FSA, CS's side effect is madness/craziness and even death, perhaps from your mind shattering. It's quite possible that CS, being based upon SSA, have the same side effects as SSA.
    Now that Orochimaro has a virtual Hashirama clone body, I don't really think he needs Sasuke for anything except Evolving Rinnegans, Even so, he only needs Sasuke's eyes for that.

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  7. #87
    Senior Member Shinhan's Avatar
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    I dont understand why people claim Minato couldnt use sage mode just because pa frog said only jairaya and naruto had sufficient chakra levels in the leaf village. Minato was dead and gone at the time. Do you think hashirama does not have enough chakra pools to be a sage? He wasnt mentioned either. Why? Most likely because he was dead. Pa toad was talking about living ninja in the leaf. Not to mention how kishi goes back on half the stuff he says anyway

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  8. #88
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinhan View Post
    I dont understand why people claim Minato couldnt use sage mode just because pa frog said only jairaya and naruto had sufficient chakra levels in the leaf village. Minato was dead and gone at the time. Do you think hashirama does not have enough chakra pools to be a sage? He wasnt mentioned either. Why? Most likely because he was dead. Pa toad was talking about living ninja in the leaf. Not to mention how kishi goes back on half the stuff he says anyway
    I get your point and I agree that Pa Frog was probably only talking about recent Ninjas. Certainly Hashirama would have qualified to be a Sage. LOL, you should note that Jiraiya was also dead at the time Pa Frog said what he said though .

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  9. #89
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    I get your point and I agree that Pa Frog was probably only talking about recent Ninjas. Certainly Hashirama would have qualified to be a Sage. LOL, you should note that Jiraiya was also dead at the time Pa Frog said what he said though .
    I think that perhaps Pa Frog noticed that people with greater amounts of chakra, had better grasp of senjutsu and were closer to completing it (there were many that failed, he must have noticed why some done poorly and why other managed at least something ). Jiraya is mentioned as one that completed it the furthest (?) before Naruto mastered it completely, though there might have been others that mastered it completely as well, seeing as Pa knew how the completed Sage Mode looks like... or maybe he was guessing (it wouldn't be hard to guess to be truthful) ?

    There is a clan that could automatically gather natural energies into their bodies while moving, who can say that there weren't people that could do the same, but instead used other medium, to avoid the risk ? For example concentrating it into living trees and then mixing it your chakra in them ? As Hashirama is now, he seems to be overpowered and there is no indication that he had to do something extreme or had to sacrifice something for the power he has. For now, it is quite strange that somehow like that was born, or perhaps there is something within his birth.

    After rereading some chapters I noticed something interesting. When Obito first confronted Nagato while pretending to be Madara, he mentioned that their society (perhaps the true purpose of ninja ?) is to guide the So6p's reincarnation into a proper path to peace. Sure, he was lying, but there might have been some truth to it. Perhaps this will tie with the purpose of Shinobi and the village, as well as it's legacy.

  10. #90
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    @Zero,

    If the purpose of the Village had to do with guiding the reincarnation of the SO6P, then you'd think that all Hokages would have had some super secrete document that described the Rinnegan, or some other trait.

    It strikes me as somewhat incongruous that the Village was very uninterested in Nagato, nor did they attempt to communicate with him once his identity was known. Sure the circumstances were hostile, but the village heads did not seem to have any indication of expectation when it came to the Rinnegan.


    About Hashirama being Overpowered, I Just LOVE IT. We really should have an Overpowered GOD of Shinobi, or else he wouldn't be a "God".

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

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