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  1. #21
    Senior Member Blackriot69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirxxx View Post
    Ok, First: You have to get your face checked out! Like, right now. Two weeks of abuse cannot be healthy for anyone's skin tone.
    And, Second: Well...they don't have to fight right now :-/

    1.I don't mind if Oda wants to take another 100 chapters to properly set up the confrontation (as he is so expertly doing now)--I still maintain that Luffy should meet Doflamingo in battle, and must be able to defeat him when he does.

    Otherwise, you're giving me two positions that I didn't take, and don't believe: That Oda should corrupt the pacing of the story, and that he should do so to have Luffy rOFLSTMP Doflamingo. I didn't say I wanted to see either of these things. I agree with you.So I can't even counter-argue because I didn't say what you...well, you get it.

    2.Each crewmember has not been defeated--they've been careless, and have succumbed to environmental hazards like terrible RPG characters. Yes, Luffy did overcome a VERY strong opponent in Hody and an incredibly lethal one in CC, but I would not call either case really struggling. When are we going to get another Zoro vs. Mr. 1? Usopp + Chopper vs. Mr. 4 and MerryChristmas? Nami vs. Kalifa? Luffy vs. Lucci?

    THAT was struggle. THAT was seeing protagonists overcome impossible odds. THAT was the magic.

    3.To be sure, the crew has been performing QUITE admirably! In fact, I would argue they have been 100% beasting 100% of the challenges they have faced since the timeskip. We're getting little of the stuff that made us fall in love with these characters: watching this family of wackjobs put everything they had--blood, bones, lives--on the line against people who should be able to wipe the floor with them. I don't want to see that change.

    There is plenty of story before, during, and, I'm sure, after Doflamingo. Strong as he is, he's small fry compared to the admirals and Yonkou--that has been readily certain. To be honest, if Luffy can't top him, he really should just quit right now and rent himself out as a bouncehouse at children's parties.

    P.S. Third: Your Bleach observation was spot-on lol.
    Lol. Glad to see my adament-tinged forwardness was received in good humor. I'll be sure to talk to my doctor about your next post in two weeks :p

    (See inserted corresponding numbers)

    1. I didn't mean to insinuate that Luffy should take the majority of the remaining story defeating fodder and avoiding the beasts. I was simply addressing your obvious eagerness for Luffy to defeat a big name in the NW rather quickly after entering the NW, technically but one arc, this past one, ago. He has plenty of build up potential as the story progresses and Oda is beginning what appears to be one of the greatest sagas to date, where Luffy and crew will certainly have a few magical moments I'm sure. Nothing to argue about between the two of us there. I, however, disagree that it will be Luffy to defeat Doflamingo. If Aokiji decides to let him off with a warning or let him escape quietly, the final defeat Doflamingo succumbs to will be at Law's hands, seeing as they have such a history and now vendetta against one another. That or Kaido will actually wipe the floor with him.

    2. Yeahhh, I equated defeat with carelessness. Not equal but similar occurences. Either way though, the point I was trying to make is that the crew is still vulnerable, and whatever amount of chapters Oda decides to create do not disregard that each chapter, each villain, power up, etc is all a step in the process of them overcoming the NW. True, the past two arcs conflicts have been relatively easy for the crew to overcome, with a few more pressing struggles I previously mentioned. Again I don't believe we are in mutual agreement that Luffy and crew must face stronger opponents in the future, and ultimately must triumph. But, they have to start somewhere; otherwise, the story risks experiencing those rushed unhyped victories void of the very magic you, I, and everyone who reads One Piece indulges on.

    3. Somewhat related to my number two thoughts, number three's matter more so on the idea of the SHs single handedly defeating their enemies from here on out. While the majority certainly will fall by their hands (Shanks, BB, Big Mom), I once again believe Law to be the ultimate benefactor/victor/trump card from this united confrontation against Kaidou, an attack plan based upon the alliance theory which is certain to become more relevant for the duration of the remaining manga. After all, Law explained that this chapter, it is no longer possible for a single crew to eliminate the Yonkou themeselves, let alone their vast underlings. Despite plot biased, Oda cannot simply push a single crew against unrealistic odds he already laid out before us. Face it, alliances are here to stay.

    PS. Seems I sort of started the Bleach references going, no? lol

  2. #22
    pirate hunter arisart's Avatar
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    @Ailricks, at his age Rayleigh is still on par with an Admiral (based on Kizaru fight) and I assume Garp is as well. If a sick WB still managed to make Akainu run for his money then old but still healthy(as far as we know) Garp and Rayleigh could too. Of course you could say WB>Garp and Rayleigh but on their prime both WB and Garp was on par with Roger so their power level wouldn't be that big. I doubt Dofla could deal damage to an Admiral like WB did.

    I can agree with Dofla being on Marco's level but the thing is there's 4 more Marco out there with the Yonkous. I'll reserved judgement whether I'll put Dofla above them or not till I actually see them.

    I don't know what are you trying to point out with Dofla law comparison with their fight against Smoker. I think we both agree Dofla is stronger.

    Dofla is the biggest of the underground pirates, but I think it's more of biggest influence than strongest.

    Of course Dofla is above Vergo comfortably, but the gap between VA's and Admirals(top tiers) is wide too.

    Also we have to consider the two newly recruited Admirals. I assume the marines would stick to their three Admiral slot and of course they should be at Kizaru's level.

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  3. #23
    Senior Member Airicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    @Ailricks, at his age Rayleigh is still on par with an Admiral (based on Kizaru fight) and I assume Garp is as well. If a sick WB still managed to make Akainu run for his money then old but still healthy(as far as we know) Garp and Rayleigh could too. Of course you could say WB>Garp and Rayleigh but on their prime both WB and Garp was on par with Roger so their power level wouldn't be that big. I doubt Dofla could deal damage to an Admiral like WB did.

    I can agree with Dofla being on Marco's level but the thing is there's 4 more Marco out there with the Yonkous. I'll reserved judgement whether I'll put Dofla above them or not till I actually see them.

    I don't know what are you trying to point out with Dofla law comparison with their fight against Smoker. I think we both agree Dofla is stronger.

    Dofla is the biggest of the underground pirates, but I think it's more of biggest influence than strongest.

    Of course Dofla is above Vergo comfortably, but the gap between VA's and Admirals(top tiers) is wide too.

    Also we have to consider the two newly recruited Admirals. I assume the marines would stick to their three Admiral slot and of course they should be at Kizaru's level.
    I don't think WB during the War could had finished off Akainu for the same reason I don't think Garp/Rayleigh could finish off Flamingo, and that's because stamina.

    Rayleigh may of had the skill to fend off Kizaru, but do you think he could had killed him? During that fight I don't remember Rayleigh ever even attacking, which is because I assume he knew he was too old to fight him and win.

    I only spoke about how Flamingo beat Smoker because it seemed like you were comparing it to when Law beat Smoker, and I disagree with any comparison that puts Law/Flamingo around the same level.

    Also, your comment about Flamingo being the biggest influence but not the physically strongest could be said about Dragon, yet Flamingo has MULTIPLE FEATS that put him well above any of the other famous NW Pirates we've seen, therefor I think it's reasonable to assume he has the power physically.

    Lastly, about your comment with the new Admirals, it isn't impossible for them to be at Kizaru's level - but it is EXTREMELY unlikely in my opinion, because if there were Marines that strong where were THEY during the War? the War that the WG almost lost - do you think Sengoku wouldn't had called them back?

    @Blackriot69

    I thought that guy was a troll, which is why I didn't reply lol, but if he isn't then thanks for replying about how unlikely it is for Luffy to be one of the strongest at this point.
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  4. #24
    Yonkou Hart_lerouxx's Avatar
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    I only spoke about how Flamingo beat Smoker because it seemed like you were comparing it to when Law beat Smoker, and I disagree with any comparison that puts Law/Flamingo around the same level.
    imo, Flamingo is using similar fighting style with Luffy, i mean he is like "pure strength" type, not that "laying on the df's ability" law's type. So of course the result also different, you cant comparing them because they re not using the same fighting style.
    Look CC's result after his fight with luffy, he got severally wounded, broken ribs, damaged face, etc, bloods everywhere, almost similar damage Smo got from Flamingo right?

    So, i think Flamingo will be a good challenge for Luffy. They both have Coc, strong haki as well, and very good df ability to make their haki even more effective.

    p.s. i cant explain better since my English is suck.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Blackriot69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    Also we have to consider the two newly recruited Admirals. I assume the marines would stick to their three Admiral slot and of course they should be at Kizaru's level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Airicks View Post
    Lastly, about your comment with the new Admirals, it isn't impossible for them to be at Kizaru's level - but it is EXTREMELY unlikely in my opinion, because if there were Marines that strong where were THEY during the War? the War that the WG almost lost - do you think Sengoku wouldn't had called them back?

    @Blackriot69

    I thought that guy was a troll, which is why I didn't reply lol, but if he isn't then thanks for replying about how unlikely it is for Luffy to be one of the strongest at this point.
    There's been speculation before about whether or not Marine HQ/WG called back every top tier Marine fighter during the war. After all, even though you are facing a Yonkou and his entire fleet of allies, the world isn't void of piracy during that time, especially not when considering there remained three other Yonkou, though both Kaidou and Shanks were revealed to have made made moves prior and following the war. In my opinion, there ARE extremely powerful fighters yet to be revealed that were not at Marineford two years ago. Perfect example, where was Vergo????

    Whether or not there ARE top tier fighters with the former Admirals that we haven't seen yet, the possibility of currently known VAs becoming Admiral level is entirely likely. My personal feelings would be Onigumo and Doberman. Not only because of their immense power and intimadation, but also because of their firm belief in Absolute Justice, which is entirely what the WG at large believes, especially considering who now steers the Marines, Akainu. Of course any one could argue for Momonga, but to me he is more about the moral implications of Justice, much like Sengoku was. Strawberry would also be in teh running as his long time superior Kizaru is/was a Admiral. Of course, knowing that the WG gave the Marines new, unprecidented power over the last two years, there isn't any problem that possibly additional Admiral positions have been created, thus allowing for more superior enforcement in problematic areas and allowing additional members of the corp, old and hopefully new to reestablish the authoritative image of the WG.

  6. #26
    pirate hunter arisart's Avatar
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    @Ailricks

    -WB had a stab wound and a failing heart( he keeps holding his chest) Garp and Rayleigh don't. If it weren't for that WB would have won. Stamina? Rayleigh swam through a storm in a another sea then through the calm belt. If it doesn't show stamina I don't know what is.

    -I doubt Rayleigh could beat him, if it went through, I think it will end in a draw most likely. Dofla ain't a Kizaru though so yeah I think Rayleigh would beat Dofla.

    -I didn't say Law is on the same level as Dofla, he'll give him a good fight though. He'll present some problems to him.

    -I'm just pertaining to what is Law actually trying to convey. I think he said it that way than his strength. Don't get me wrong Dofla is indeed strong could be top 11-20 easily.

    -Almost lost the war? I thought they were winning alright. It only gotten hard for them due to unexpected events like the arrival of Luffy and co and BB. They didn't bring all of their forces, they brought enough and a plan. If it weren't for Luffy, no one could have freed Ace and no one could have gotten pass by Garp and Sengoku. Also,WB ain't their only enemies. There's the three remaining Yonkous and the RA. They can't risk putting all their forces in the war and be vulnerable from attacks from those group so the chances of having strong marines not joining the war is high.

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  7. #27
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    You shouldn't use the War as an indicator of strength. All the top tier players where holding back so as not to destroy their own forces or they just didn't care at all.

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  8. #28
    Senior Member Airicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackriot69 View Post
    There's been speculation before about whether or not Marine HQ/WG called back every top tier Marine fighter during the war. After all, even though you are facing a Yonkou and his entire fleet of allies, the world isn't void of piracy during that time, especially not when considering there remained three other Yonkou, though both Kaidou and Shanks were revealed to have made made moves prior and following the war. In my opinion, there ARE extremely powerful fighters yet to be revealed that were not at Marineford two years ago. Perfect example, where was Vergo????

    Whether or not there ARE top tier fighters with the former Admirals that we haven't seen yet, the possibility of currently known VAs becoming Admiral level is entirely likely. My personal feelings would be Onigumo and Doberman. Not only because of their immense power and intimadation, but also because of their firm belief in Absolute Justice, which is entirely what the WG at large believes, especially considering who now steers the Marines, Akainu. Of course any one could argue for Momonga, but to me he is more about the moral implications of Justice, much like Sengoku was. Strawberry would also be in teh running as his long time superior Kizaru is/was a Admiral. Of course, knowing that the WG gave the Marines new, unprecidented power over the last two years, there isn't any problem that possibly additional Admiral positions have been created, thus allowing for more superior enforcement in problematic areas and allowing additional members of the corp, old and hopefully new to reestablish the authoritative image of the WG.
    Vergo is not Admiral level, not even close, we are talking about guys who's strength is on par with Kizaru/Akainu/Aokiji - And while it is POSSIBLE there would be VA's at that power level, it is VERY unlikely in my mind, since, Admirals are to keep Yonkous in check while VA's are the Marine Enforcers in the NW, if there were really 2-3 more guys on Admiral level then the powers would NOT BE BALANCED since they would be vastly stronger then any crew+allies, and there would be no reason for the WG to let there be any Yonkous.

    Also, I don't think any VA we've seen (except Prime Garp) is Admiral level in power, please name Feats/Prestige that puts any of the ones you mentioned on Akainu/Kizaru/Aokiji level.

    Of course the WG could not abandon everything and send it to Marineford, but they would have sent enough to protect it, that is like saying several countries in Europe want to invade and possibly destroy New York City, would the US plainly abandon the defense of everything it holds? no, but would they send EVERYTHING needed to protect 'Rome'? Of Course, a government would never let it's major center of power fall - Sengoku KNEW Whitebeards power, do you think he was resigned to let Marineford be destroyed? hell no.



    Quote Originally Posted by arisart View Post
    @Ailricks

    -WB had a stab wound and a failing heart( he keeps holding his chest) Garp and Rayleigh don't. If it weren't for that WB would have won. Stamina? Rayleigh swam through a storm in a another sea then through the calm belt. If it doesn't show stamina I don't know what is.

    -I doubt Rayleigh could beat him, if it went through, I think it will end in a draw most likely. Dofla ain't a Kizaru though so yeah I think Rayleigh would beat Dofla.

    -I didn't say Law is on the same level as Dofla, he'll give him a good fight though. He'll present some problems to him.

    -I'm just pertaining to what is Law actually trying to convey. I think he said it that way than his strength. Don't get me wrong Dofla is indeed strong could be top 11-20 easily.

    -Almost lost the war? I thought they were winning alright. It only gotten hard for them due to unexpected events like the arrival of Luffy and co and BB. They didn't bring all of their forces, they brought enough and a plan. If it weren't for Luffy, no one could have freed Ace and no one could have gotten pass by Garp and Sengoku. Also,WB ain't their only enemies. There's the three remaining Yonkous and the RA. They can't risk putting all their forces in the war and be vulnerable from attacks from those group so the chances of having strong marines not joining the war is high.
    -So you think Whitebeard at the start of the War could had solo'd Akainu? Because for a man who fought with Aokiji for 10days straight I doubt it, I don't think Whitebeard at his age could use Haki like he could in his prime, like how Rayleigh could only use CoC once at the auction house, I think Haki in general takes energy to use - Rayleigh couldn't do it constantly on fodder marines, there is nothing to make me think Whitebeard could do it for days on end against Akainu.

    -Rayleigh swimming half way across the Calm Belt after swimming through a storm is a impressive feat, but for men so overpowered (men who have the strength to destroy Islands) would it be impossible to muster the stamina to carry your own body across water? also, it's not known if he took any breaks during the swim or what trouble Sea Kings gave him since he has CoC. I stand by my position that Rayleigh/Garp could not kill Flamingo due to stamina.

    -I disagree, like I said, I picture Law weaker then Luffy/Zoro there is no way he is going to give Flamingo any problems.

    -hm, maybe that is what Law was saying about Flamingo, but in One Piece power IS influence (unless you're Buggy), I still have him breaking into the top 10, definitely no less then 12 or so.

    -You may be right about this, thinking back (because i didn't go reread any of this lol, it's just what i recall) The WB Pirates/Allies were losing when the Marines fell back and started blasting them with cannons, and the PX's were obliterating the pirates holding the rear, Whitebeard couldn't seem to do anything other then tank hits (even though he should had been able to crack the walls like he did the ice mountains Aokiji made).
    Still as I said before, Whitebeard had the power to destroy Marineford, Sengoku knew this, he would had sent back everything he could in order to prevent the WG from losing their 'Rome'.

    Quote Originally Posted by xioaxioa View Post
    You shouldn't use the War as an indicator of strength. All the top tier players where holding back so as not to destroy their own forces or they just didn't care at all.
    I've thought this since the War, it was retarded to have any fodder Marines there (and at the war it seemed even a lot of the VA's were fodder) - Sengoku should had only had the Admirals/Garp/Himself there to fight, the Admirals were all logias, they HAD the AoE (area of effect) attacks to off ANY weaker Pirate (Akainu could had made a river of lava, anything that would prevent a mob from rushing Ace).

    This makes me think more then the WG was not working with much, if they truly had 2-3 more VA's that were Kizaru level they would had ONLY needed those 8 people (the 2-3 VA's/3 Admirals/Garp/Sengoku) and there would be NOTHING Whitebeard and his allies could had done, also, why not use those Vice Admirals (the ones who are on Admiral level I mean)? the manga clearly states Shanks was fighting with Kaido the DAY before the War - how big were the chances of a large scale attack elsewhere?
    Last edited by Airicks; 02-06-2013 at 05:33 AM.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member cross777's Avatar
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    great chapter.

    Good to know tat flamingo is not playing around with smoker. He really is chad lol. that makes me sad, really really sad ! i can not wait to see what kinniomons connection to this guy on dress rosa is. i wonder if e has some connection to kiadu? like maybe kiadu is from wano? probably to much of a stretch.
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    Lol, I bet you argue too much with cross. It's not really healthy you know.
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    Hey stick to the topic, quit asking nonsense question about other series or if cross777 is thunder luffy which by the way have different IP addresses.... Next person that goes off topic will be infracted...
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  10. #30
    pirate hunter arisart's Avatar
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    @Ailricks

    -Yep, I have no doubt about that. If an obviously weakened WB could deal tons of damage to Akainu in just two strikes, a healthy WB vs Akainu wouldn't last 10 days. A few hours would be enough. Plus Akainu dishes out killer blows too, either way the fight would be quicker than a fight with Aokiji. Yes haki uses energy but I think he can handle it. Rayleigh not using CoC a second time is because he didn't want to get detected more than anything. I highly doubt a haki burst which only takes out fodders cannot be used again by someone of his stature.

    -We can only agree to disagree on this. We already have made our point.

    -I think he's on their level and even if he's a tad weaker I actually think he would give Dofla more problems than Luffy based on their fighting styles. Dofla keeps trying to strangle law with his strings while Law keeps on cutting it. Between the three, I want Zoro to face Dofla though, it would be the most epic imo.

    -Yes Sengoku knew WB has the ability to destroy MF, that's what the wall WB couldn't destroy is for. The strategy just didn't go as smoothly as they had hoped thanks to Oars. And outside of BB and Luffy's gang, the WB pirates weren't able to penetrate the marines last line of defense which was Sengoku and Garp. They weren't pushed to their limit at that point so no need to call for any back-up.

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