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  1. #71
    Que gatito mas leeendo!!! hikonami's Avatar
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    basically uchihas can't handle their emotions......i get it like this "the more power they get the more irrational they become". when you let your feelings rule over your mind it is a recipe for disaster.....
    Miau, Miau, Miau.....prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!

  2. #72
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Juugo's The Absorbing Man, so does it mean that he now has Mokuton, or Does Orochimaru himself now have Mokuton for that Matter?

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  3. #73
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Juugo's The Absorbing Man, so does it mean that he now has Mokuton, or Does Orochimaru himself now have Mokuton for that Matter?
    And of course, Juugo can simply implant his flesh/chakra into Sasuke whenever he pleases, since Sasuke is compatible with the Cursed Seal and whatnot... so Sasuke could potentially gain Mokuton/Rinnegan if Juugo did indeed absorb Zetsu's powers. Not to mention a bit more of that Senjutsu-absorbing power, and also the Physical Energies necessary to handle the complete Sage Mode... hopefully Sasuke's next power-up is more creative than that, since another "Madara" is hardly what we need right now, and it takes too much thunder from Naruto's own powers.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lakritze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlinfamous View Post
    I guess that's the danger of having overly-charged Spiritual Energies... they react too heavily to one's mental state, especially considering the mental energies are already channeled through the eyes.

    Are we to understand that Uchiha emotions are naturally more intense, and thus harder to handle on an objective, rational level? And what does Tobirama mean when he states that the Uchiha "sealed their love off" themselves for that reason? Does he mean they became a clan with strict standards for self-control / emotional repression? Or is it something in the Uchiha's mind that literally needs to be unlocked?

    I feel like this development pushes the Uchiha characters too far down the path of symbolism.... they were already representative of intense love that can easily turn to intense hatred or anguish, but this genetic explanation (even if it ties in with what we already knew about unlocking the Mangekyou) is just too much. Not only that, Tobirama makes it sound like he's seen quite a few Uchiha unlock their MS, when until now it seemed like a rare phenomenon.
    As to what we know, the phenomenon Tobirama described doesn't necessarily lead to the Mangekyou. The Uchiha planned a coup-d'état, fully aware that they would risk a war and thus their own safety. You have to be pretty messed up to see through such a plan. So they had sinister intentions, but they certainly didn't all have the Mangekyou.

    However, how did Madara/Izuna and Itachi/Shisui develop their Mangekyou in the first place? The legend says that Madara and Izuna developped the Mangekyou in their effort to surpass each other. With Itachi and Shisui, it seems to have been the same thing. Although competition may be intense, it's nothing like killing your brother (Sasuke) or watching your secret love being killed by your best friend (Obito). If that were enough, many more Uchihas would have awakened their Mangekyou. Maybe there are more ways to awaken the Mangekyou (intense training maybe). But it's a bit strange.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Juugo's The Absorbing Man, so does it mean that he now has Mokuton, or Does Orochimaru himself now have Mokuton for that Matter?
    I think its highly unlikely that Juugo has the Mokuton, Orochimaru might have some minor form of it after possessing the Zetsu body but if absorbing the Mokuton was so easy Kabuto would have done it by now, he had multiple opportunities when he took Yamato. Kabuto was able to integrate bloodlines into himself that even Orochimaru hadn't yet been able to integrate. The only chance that Orochimaru now has the Mokuton is that he somehow got it by possessing one of the white Zetsus. As we have seen though the White Zetsu's seem to have a relatively weak Mokuton not even on par with Obito's. So Orochimaru might be able to use some spore abilities and such but I highly doubt that he can conjure forests or use the higher level Mokuton abilities.

    The Mokuton seems to be a very difficult power to integrate. We have seen with Danzou that the Mokuton is difficult to control. Likewise all of the clones that Orochimaru tried to make of Hashirama died except for Yamato. Orochimaru probably realized this problem and that is why he was planning to wait until he had a powerful Uchiha body before integrating Hashirama's cells into his body. The Uchiha are apparently well suited to having the Mokuton, probably because of their genetic ties to the Rikudou.

    I suspect that Orochimaru may now help Sasuke get the Mokuton and awaken the Rinnegan. I think that Sasuke will complete the bloodline of the Rikudou but Naruto will increase his knowledge of the Sage arts and Natural Energy.

    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/590/8
    http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/590/9

    Here there are two statues shown, one appears to be of a War god with 4 eyes 2 faces and 6 arms holding weapons and apparently performing a Jutsu. I believe that this Statue represents the power of the bloodlines, 2 sets of eyes (like the Eternal Mangekyou), 3 faces (a merge of the bloodlines), armed with weapons (like Susanoo), and performing a Jutsu (the power of ninja). The eyes of the central face are also angry, almost bestial while the other two faces appear to be neutral, this may represent the violence required to bring the powers of the bloodlines together. We have seen this both in how the Uchiha upgrade their eyes and how the bloodlines are fused.

    The other statue appears to be of a peaceful god with a halo, eyes close, 2 hands folded in prayer, 2 hands held out in a meditation position, and 2 hands holding a globe. I believe this statue represents the Sage path. The halo/crown, represents knowledge and wisdom of the world, the statues eyes are close and hands are held in the meditation position (we saw Naruto assume similar poses to gather natural energy). I believe the globe represents the world itself, the source of the sages power and also what the sage protects.

    While there background elements may just be for show, I think there is usually a reason behind their design.

  6. #76
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    this chapter has me appreciate naruto anew. without complaining about the misuse of mystery shrouding "the human who knows everything" being yet another edo tensei of known characters... i think having all the past hokages present is amazing and i would be lying if i said i never wanted it, ihappily accept it no matter the way in which it happened.

    "rebirth of the hokage" - so much to read into! resurrection isn't simply rebirth and no dead hokage will be undergoing critical personality transformation. "rebirth" is deeper and i feel it touches upon itachi's wisdom at 7 years old and more importantly, what sasuke will learn an internalize after the conversation is over. i am not claiming he will become hokage but the "rebirth of hokage" , imo, means that whatever the leaf legacy is and how it participates into a shinibi being becoming hokage will be "conceived" in sasuke and thus "rebirth". will take some time ofc but after hashirama and the others make their impression on sasuke, his character will have something to resolve which is also vital to how he treats hus bond with naruto, a kage level matter of the heart.

    tobirama talking down his older brother is a clear glimpse into how konahamaru and naruto will behave! i love it! haha, naruto as hokage having to slouch his shoulders because he is too pure hearted to save face after his subordinate, konahamaru, rebukes him in front of an auduence. just love it!

    orichimaru being sly, pointing out he didn't bother tampering with their petsonalities to gain their trust while they are still unaware being in the midst of the stone tablet (oro selected the location, what's he up to)

    sasuke activated ms mode, he must be getting itchy to "let out his feelings".
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  7. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Lakritze View Post
    As to what we know, the phenomenon Tobirama described doesn't necessarily lead to the Mangekyou. The Uchiha planned a coup-d'état, fully aware that they would risk a war and thus their own safety. You have to be pretty messed up to see through such a plan. So they had sinister intentions, but they certainly didn't all have the Mangekyou.

    However, how did Madara/Izuna and Itachi/Shisui develop their Mangekyou in the first place? The legend says that Madara and Izuna developped the Mangekyou in their effort to surpass each other. With Itachi and Shisui, it seems to have been the same thing. Although competition may be intense, it's nothing like killing your brother (Sasuke) or watching your secret love being killed by your best friend (Obito). If that were enough, many more Uchihas would have awakened their Mangekyou. Maybe there are more ways to awaken the Mangekyou (intense training maybe). But it's a bit strange.
    Itachi and Shisui's case seems to be interesting in that they were willing to not only sacrifice their lives but to commit genocide in order to protect the village. If that is not "feelings" out of control I don't know what is. This along with the new explanations would be enough inner turmoil to awaken the MS. No other Uchiha at the time could have done that, but Madara and his Brother could have in the time of the warring clans.
    I am an artist, and my medium is death. I'm about to create my masterpiece :s



    Fan of the Rasengan Doujutsu theory, even though it's dead. Although, he does have the special Uzumaki clan blood.

    Quote Originally Posted by thorofasgard13 View Post
    Because he's the hero the shinobi world deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. Naruto.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakritze View Post
    As to what we know, the phenomenon Tobirama described doesn't necessarily lead to the Mangekyou. The Uchiha planned a coup-d'état, fully aware that they would risk a war and thus their own safety. You have to be pretty messed up to see through such a plan. So they had sinister intentions, but they certainly didn't all have the Mangekyou.

    However, how did Madara/Izuna and Itachi/Shisui develop their Mangekyou in the first place? The legend says that Madara and Izuna developped the Mangekyou in their effort to surpass each other. With Itachi and Shisui, it seems to have been the same thing. Although competition may be intense, it's nothing like killing your brother (Sasuke) or watching your secret love being killed by your best friend (Obito). If that were enough, many more Uchihas would have awakened their Mangekyou. Maybe there are more ways to awaken the Mangekyou (intense training maybe). But it's a bit strange.
    Yep, the eyes grow stronger, but they doesn't necessarily have to reach MS level, it seems that they are killed before they reach it, or they simply use Izanagi to impose the most favorable destiny that allows to complete their revenge, rather than awaken or use MS (the MS jutsu vary greatly and it was mentioned that Susanoo is rarely awakened, but people did awaken MS). What's more, even after achieving MS, the eyes can still grow stronger. It's possible that the reason that most Uchiha doesn't awaken Susanoo, is because awakening of MS or use of Izanagi, or just the additional power up, is enough to exact their revenge and they simply do not need to achieve greater power.

    You have to remember that Uchiha were constantly battling other clans in the past, there were many occasions for their subdued feelings and emotions to bust out the moment something tragic happened.

    Shisui was already displaying his MS power in the 3rd great ninja war, even though he seems to be only a little older than Obito (a war is always a tragedy). As to Itachi, loosing his friends, even witnessing his sacrifice, was most likely the act that awakened great emotions within Itachi, thus awakening his MS.

    Actually, I think that Itachi tried to awaken Sasuke's MS by using Tsukuyomi a few times. The reason that it didn't work, suggests that he didn't value his clan as he valued Itachi. Theoretically, it should be possible to awaken MS within an Uchiha with a realistic illusions of their most precious people dying before them, but the Sharingan itself probably doesn't allow for them to be as effective as reality.

  9. #79
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    well, it's said now the sharingan is the eye that reflects feelings. so far, the focus has been on negative feelings and how the sharingan benefits from darkness and hate. it isn't proven that's the only way. when love is lost intensely it creates a special chakra. what if love is realized and kept safe intensely? does it not produce a special chakra also?

    obito and sasuke both awakened sharingan to protect love (sasuke wont admit to his bond with naruto at the time). they cherished and it was intense, their sharingan awoke. clearly, sharingan is not strictly caused by anguish of loss but by the loving principle of protecting your comrades. something deep as the heart of konaha's guiding principle and will of fire.

    mangekyo is what we see happening as the result of losing love and being born of hatred. naturally, losing love is the next step after having love and consequently the mangekyo would reflect that being the parallel next step in regards to power.

    sharingan - protect and love

    mangekyo - anguish and descent

    ems - hatred and vengeance

    tobirama did not offer an accurate explanation and is probably why his views were skewed. hashirama probably understands sharingan better and what it means.

    when you see that sharingan awakens for good reasons, protecting those you love, you really start to flesh out more of the bloodline legacies and how they connect.

    sharingan reflects love, is powerful, and when used with comrades that are relied upon to do what the sharingan cannot, the relationship is balanced and perfect. this is central to edo itachi's words to kabuto! when the comrade is lost the mangekyo awakes, the power is boosted in order to compensate for what was lost that the fallen loved one provided. that is the curse, the mangekyo, self reliance fed on darkness as a means to tragically destroy not only subsequent manifestation of love but to also destroy self. ms can still have an opposite side born from stronger love imo. ems was shown to happen because itachi loved sasuke. ems is probably the most steeped in meaning and symbol as our experience of it in the manga is limited and complex.

    rinnegan? that's outer territory moving away from symptomatic uchiha and their feelings alone. as i said before and has been said again ny someone else, hashirama spared madara and volunteered his power to allow him to live. i don't think rinnegan could have happened otherwise given the thematic feelings we are now told cause their powers.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  10. #80
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    If all Uchiha are like that, then I'm starting to wonder if the Elder Brother wasn't like that as well. It does seem that it all started with him. Perhaps his doujutsu should be simply considered as an inborn EMS (they do have different shapes varying quite strongly). It would have been quite strange if So6p himself was like that, then again, with his sealing techniques, he might have been able to block it. This might really be a result of the Jyubi, seeing as even a slight amount of Natural Energy, tends to turn Juugo into a psychopath, so perhaps that special chakra, is indeed a Senjutsu Chakra. This would explain why Sasuke seems to have near unlimited (at least a lot of additional) amount of special chakra for his MS jutsu. The fact that they didn't learn a proper method of drawing and molding it, might be the cause of their eyesight deteriorating.

    Ah the ET, I'm still wondering about the possibility of Obito using it, reviving all Uchiha (of whose eyes he has, this includes Shisui and Izuna) as well as other, like Jiraya, whose DNA he supposedly has in his possession (according to Kabuto). He knows how to perform the technique and he does have enough sacrificial material. Or perhaps even Madara himself having stored a few Edo Zombies just in case (he does to seem to know a lot about the technique).

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