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  1. #101
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakritze View Post
    In any case, his focus moved to Naruto. It's him he promised to kill first before he kills all the Leafs (http://www.mangareader.net/93-48483-...apter-487.html). It's a promise he is even keeping, as he said during his fight against Zetsu (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/574/15). I know, it was all before he met Itachi. But we are still about to see how much he has softened towards the village.
    on that note, i want to see sasuke under izanami and how he would change or overcome it. there just isn't anyone around to use it on him woth only kakashi and obito's eyes remaining. i dont want izanami to merely be itachi's deus ex machina.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Lakritze's Avatar
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    Now that the discussion is rather calm and everybody is waiting for Wednesday just to read the 16 pages and wait for another Wednesday, I have one hypothesis I would like to discuss.

    I think I am not the only one who was rather surprised about the strength of the First Hokage. I thought to know how strong he is since we saw him fight, and he was not nearly as godlike as he is considered now. And we already saw him fight against Sarutobi, along with his brother - at least we thought we did. Naruto, Bee, Raikage, Minato, Sasuke, Itachi, ... they all would have kicked his ass (as well as Tobirama's, Oro's as well as Sarutobi's) without breaking a sweat.

    So how is it possible that the Rama-brothers were so weak back then? My theory is that - at least in the case of the Super-Sayajin-Shinobis - the more you have to control your Edos mentally, the weaker they are when it comes to using their original powers. When you weaken the control, they can move more freely and thus make better use of their own prowess, at the risk of losing control over them. This seemed to have happened in the case of Hanzou and Madara. Maybe Kabuchimaru could have controlled Hanzou to a greater degree, so that he wouldn't have committed suicide. Yet he would have been so easy to kill/isolate/bind, that he wouldn't have been a treat to Mifune.

    What do you think? I made up this theory because I wanted to understand why Hashirama (and maybe Tobirama as well) were so weak during their first appearance.

  3. #103
    SIMS for short >:] StareIntoMySharingan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakritze View Post
    What do you think? I made up this theory because I wanted to understand why Hashirama (and maybe Tobirama as well) were so weak during their first appearance.
    This complain was somewhat popular but the answer, if meditated upon enough, is quite simple. Sarutobi was a super saiyan in his own right, which is evident by being chosen as Hokage at such a young age. And to go hand-to-hand with such a shinobi can quite possibly end up with your limbs being blown off with sneakily(in the ninja kind of sense) placed paper bombs.

    Side-note: Would Hashirama be able to heal such an injury(his limbs being blown off) without Edo Tensei? It has now been revealed that he was able to heal himself without seals, which further gives credit to his ability to stand up against such a monster as an Uchiha that Madara is/was with his Mangekyou abilities.

    Back to discussion: And even then, Sarutobi was being pushed back by the Hashirama and Tobirama. After all is said and done, the only real reason this Super Saiyan defeated those two Super Saiyans, was due to the "Super Saiyan 2" technique known as the Death Reaper Seal.
    And witness the sparkle within this world of darkness.
    http://mangashare.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic54294_1.gif


  4. #104
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    ^ That depends. Healing, is just producing and replacing old destroyed cells with new ones, while regeneration is repairing destroyed ones. Humans can produce a limited amount of cells (at some point they loose the capability to create some types), which means that quickly healing up, means using them up faster and thus shortening your lifespan. Hashirama is said to be able to heal himself without using seals, but there is no mention that it is a reptile like ability. In short, if it's only healing, then no, but if it's regeneration, then maybe.


    The power levels weren't quite set right there (and even now they are only vague), at the moment of Oro vs Sarutobi fight.

    The space was limited by the barrier, which gave, taijutsu superior Hiruzen, an advantage against them. Besides, Madara already presented how Hashirama used his jutus and well, you need to pass through kilometers of bush, only to learn that it's a wood clone (only Madara could tell the difference). Tobirama's style seems to be more akin to Kisame's, first making the plane advantage to himself and then displaying his broad range of water jutsu. Seeing as he was Hashirama's brother, their style might be similar, which means fighting at a large space with big jutsu might have been more advantageous to him.

    Konoha Shinobi's battle power depends strongly on their Will of Fire, if it's gone, their powers are reduced.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Lakritze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StareIntoMySharingan View Post
    This complain was somewhat popular but the answer, if meditated upon enough, is quite simple. Sarutobi was a super saiyan in his own right, which is evident by being chosen as Hokage at such a young age. And to go hand-to-hand with such a shinobi can quite possibly end up with your limbs being blown off with sneakily(in the ninja kind of sense) placed paper bombs.

    Side-note: Would Hashirama be able to heal such an injury(his limbs being blown off) without Edo Tensei? It has now been revealed that he was able to heal himself without seals, which further gives credit to his ability to stand up against such a monster as an Uchiha that Madara is/was with his Mangekyou abilities.

    Back to discussion: And even then, Sarutobi was being pushed back by the Hashirama and Tobirama. After all is said and done, the only real reason this Super Saiyan defeated those two Super Saiyans, was due to the "Super Saiyan 2" technique known as the Death Reaper Seal.
    So what you are saying is: We saw the real fully-powered Hashirama? And in a real battle with the Rama-brothers not being ET, the explosive tags would have hit them? I cannot agree, I seriously do not believe that Sarutobi would have been able to place the tags on them. Having seen how quickly Itachi can move and place clones, there is no way this cheap trick would have worked. Or do you deny that Oro's ET-Hashirama was weaker than the real one?

  6. #106
    首はねスレイマン Saiges's Avatar
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    With the huge powerscale between Naruto and Naruto Shippuuden there's no way the rama brothers were at 100%. I dare to say both ET Shodai and Nidaime were displayed with less than 50% of their actual power.

    1. Madara roflstomped the 4 kages.
    2. Each Kage shown in the war would have beaten old man Sarutobi. They all have hax powers while Saru was shooting D-rank ninjutsu. Not to mention his chakra, age and...the use of paperbombs.
    3. This same old man took on 2 Hokages, both (seemed) fit in age. One of them was the GOD of shinobi and beaten the crap out of Madara.
    4. They were FULLY controlled by Orochimaru and the Mokuton used wasn't better than Yamato's.
    __________________________________________


  7. #107
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakritze View Post
    Now that the discussion is rather calm and everybody is waiting for Wednesday just to read the 16 pages and wait for another Wednesday, I have one hypothesis I would like to discuss.

    I think I am not the only one who was rather surprised about the strength of the First Hokage. I thought to know how strong he is since we saw him fight, and he was not nearly as godlike as he is considered now. And we already saw him fight against Sarutobi, along with his brother - at least we thought we did. Naruto, Bee, Raikage, Minato, Sasuke, Itachi, ... they all would have kicked his ass (as well as Tobirama's, Oro's as well as Sarutobi's) without breaking a sweat.

    So how is it possible that the Rama-brothers were so weak back then? My theory is that - at least in the case of the Super-Sayajin-Shinobis - the more you have to control your Edos mentally, the weaker they are when it comes to using their original powers. When you weaken the control, they can move more freely and thus make better use of their own prowess, at the risk of losing control over them. This seemed to have happened in the case of Hanzou and Madara. Maybe Kabuchimaru could have controlled Hanzou to a greater degree, so that he wouldn't have committed suicide. Yet he would have been so easy to kill/isolate/bind, that he wouldn't have been a treat to Mifune.

    What do you think? I made up this theory because I wanted to understand why Hashirama (and maybe Tobirama as well) were so weak during their first appearance.
    The Sarutobi vs. Orochimaru fight was the best example in the entire manga of how power scaling issues can lead to some very messed up representations of characters' strength. If that fight had lived up to what the characters have been said to be capable of in Part2, every subsequent fight for the next 200 chapters would have seemed miniscule in comparison, because we didn't see fights on that level until Jiraiya vs. Pain.

    We've seen what Madara can do with Hashirama's techniques; if Edo Hashirama had gotten serious against Sarutobi, there wouldn't have been a Konoha. However, unleashing that level of power so early on in the series, when the main protagonist was a scrub who hadn't even learned Rasengan, would only detract from the story.

  8. #108
    Senior Member Temperjoke's Avatar
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    1. I think it's safe to assume that Hashirama and Tobirama were not fighting at their full capacity. They were on automatic battle mode, which is even less than if Orochimaru had been controlling them directly.

    2. At the same time, I think we're over-estimating how powerful Hashirama and Tobirama are, because we're comparing them to the Madara we saw fight, the Edo Tensei version whose body was souped up by Kabuto/Orochimaru. You have to remember, if it weren't for Hashirama's cells and the Rinnegan, the ET Madara would have been defeated at several points during the battle.

  9. #109
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    The most interesting thing in the whole chapter was how Tobirama referred to awakening the sharingan as a symptom. Even Kurama said the Uchiha eye's are cursed and we can clearly see there is link to the Jyuubi. The negative chakra or Yin chakra inherited by the Uchiha passed down from their predecessors.

    I mean people have joked around about the Uchiha being all Emo or whatever but finding out that they really are genetically predisposed to negative emotions is something else.

    Perhaps this is also the reason why Minato sealed only the Yin style in the death god as maybe heavy concentrations of Yin style chakra have an effect on a persons mental stability.

    This is similar to Ying/Yang concept in real life as too:

    TOO MUCH YIN
    GET DEPRESSED OFTEN
    CRY FREQUENTLY
    DWELL IN THE PAST
    FEELINGS OF HOPELESSNESS
    HOLD ON TO THINGS TOO LONG


    TOO MUCH YANG
    FEEL HYPERACTIVE
    ENERGETIC AND ACTIVE
    ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT THE FUTURE
    NOT PRACTICAL ENOUGH
    WANDER THROUGH LIFE


    Fire type

    What chakra type are you?
    http://www.quizilla.com/quizzes/4038...lement-are-you

  10. #110
    [̲̅ə̲̅٨̲̅٥̲̅٦̲̅] guy's Avatar
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    easy fix, naruto needs ritalin while saskue needs zoloft

    A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

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