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  1. #121
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Personally, I think Sasuke's ultimate answer will be to end the Shinobi system, which promotes and propagates war, hatred, and distrust. He needs to look beyond just Konoha and the Uchiha, just as Naruto has goals greater than simply becoming Hokage. Naruto's greatest goal is to fulfill the role of saviour left to him by Jiraiya/his parents/the Frog Prophecy/etc. Sasuke has nothing to put him on that level, and until now has set his sights too low to truly be a rival to Naruto at this stage.

    I wonder if the Hokage themselves will share Naruto's own optimism, confronted with Sasuke, the embodiment of their failures. Even his path of hatred is a result of the Hiruzen's failed policies and Minato's corrupted student.

    Much as I'm mostly interested in the flashback/insights in upcoming chapters, I'm pretty sure these Hokages will eventually hit the battlefield to help save the future, whatever Sasuke decides. Perhaps they'll determine that, regardless, Sasuke is better than Madara, so stopping Madara is the priority.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    As I demonstrated in my link, Sandaime knew about the Death God Jutsu before Yondaime died. If so any left over artifacts relating to the death God should have been Sequestered by the Hokage for safe keeping. To not do so is negligent.
    Yeah, guarding and safekeeping the scroll with forbidden jutsu made it only easier to steal it by someone who wasn't even a genin at that time, someone that wasn't even a ninja... leaving that mask alone in that shrine worked better if you ask me, since only Oro actually knew what, how and was capable of safely doing it (there is probably a reason why he didn't touch any of the other masks).


    The fact that Obito seems to be able to cast Rinne Tensei with only one Rinnegan and that he left the other one for safekeeping, seems to suggests that he wants to leave it for Sasuke... it's possible that Obito wants only to link Sasuke to Jyubi, so that he can calm him down and make sealing it easier or even possible for him, seeing as there is a possibility of having to play the tug of war, if you try to seal it when it's on the loose. We have to remember than neither Obito nor Madara are So6p, they might need additional help sealing it (well, at least Obito does look like someone who might need help with it).

  3. #123
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero View Post
    Yeah, guarding and safekeeping the scroll with forbidden jutsu made it only easier to steal it by someone who wasn't even a genin at that time, someone that wasn't even a ninja... leaving that mask alone in that shrine worked better if you ask me, since only Oro actually knew what, how and was capable of safely doing it (there is probably a reason why he didn't touch any of the other masks).


    The fact that Obito seems to be able to cast Rinne Tensei with only one Rinnegan and that he left the other one for safekeeping, seems to suggests that he wants to leave it for Sasuke... it's possible that Obito wants only to link Sasuke to Jyubi, so that he can calm him down and make sealing it easier or even possible for him, seeing as there is a possibility of having to play the tug of war, if you try to seal it when it's on the loose. We have to remember than neither Obito nor Madara are So6p, they might need additional help sealing it (well, at least Obito does look like someone who might need help with it).
    Zero, I am not even sure that Obito ever intends to cast Rinne Tensei, so him running around with only one Rinnegan doesn't prove that to me. As far as I can see, the only thing Obito "wants" to cast is Eternal Tsukuyomi. As we have seen, he doesn't trust Madara's commitment to the plan Given that Madara just wants to play with The Juubi like a kid with a Toy.

    Also bear in mind that Madara said that controling the Juubi's power completely is not possible while not being the Jinchuuriki. This means to me that Obito or Sasuke will need to become thta Jinchuuriki first, before performing the Mugen Tsukuyomi.


    AND, Zero.....Are you saying that Konoha has no secretes that they have succeeded in keeping buried, or that they are incapable of such?

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  4. #124
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    As I demonstrated in my link, Sandaime knew about the Death God Jutsu before Yondaime died. If so any left over artifacts relating to the death God should have been Sequestered by the Hokage for safe keeping. To not do so is negligent.
    Your missing the point in that clans have secrets just like the Uchiha have that stone tablet passed down from the Sage. The mask was probably a secret even the 3rd & 4th Hokage didn't know about. It's possible even Kushina didn't know about it as maybe it was a secret being safeguarded by some other member of the clan.

    If I where a betting man I would say Karin had some remnant knowledge from the Uzamaki clan that she gave to Orohimaru possibly that very same scroll.




    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Nagato weilded the Rinnegan, so he could activate Rinne Tensei. Sasuke doesn't have a Rinnegan, unless Tobi was planning on giving him Madara's eyes?
    Again your missing an obvious plot point that has been pointed out already. All Sasuke needs is Hashirama cells and his EMS can be upgraded to Rinnegan. Tobi clearly has access to that and could choose to upgrade him if he wanted to. He has chosen not to because hes not sure if Sasuke can be controlled yet which he mentions clearly.


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  5. #125
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Madara seems like he has an upper hand against Obito, but really, Tobi has quite a few potential trump cards:

    1. Sasuke, or rather he was, since it seems he lost him.

    2. Knowledge of casting ET and enough sacrificial material to summon who ever he wants, as long as he has the DNA (as it was proven in this chapter), for example Shisui. After reviving Madara, or before, he only needs to give him order to Kotoamatsukami Madara, so that he will for sure cast Eternal Tsukuyomi. I wouldn't mind seeing Sasuke vs ET Shisui, as well .

    3. I'm not sure if it could be called his trump card, perhaps rather Madara's back up plan, is the Black Zetsu. Seeing as he has Madara's mental energies, knowledge and Hashirama's physical energies form the white portion coupled up with one of Madara's Rinnegan missing, he might be a candidate to revive Madara (it's hard to say who he is following right now).

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoru View Post
    @Paul

    In first place, my information may be limited. Maybe I missed some pieces of story, but what does tobi exactly need Sasuke for? Zero, said up here that Sasuke is in his eyes a substitute for Madara. He wants to use sasuke for what madara was supposed to be used in the original plan. But...WHAT exactly was madara supposed to do in the original plan? I think Tobi doesen't need Madara nor sasuke to link to the mazou...he too has a rinnegan, so he can control the juubi himself, and he could become its jinchuuriki without needing madara or any other help.

    That said, i thing Zero is right. Sasuke is very important to obito. He needs him, apparently and he thinks he still has sasuke at the hideout. It's true he promised sasuke to kabuto after the end of the war, but i think it was an utter lie. If tobi somehow notices sasuke has followed orochimaru in konoha...i bet he would do something. I don't know what, but he can't stay indifferent in this situation. Then another question arises. How to flee without Madara noticing? Madara doesen't know about Sasuke uchiha. If he learned Obito prepared a substitute for himself, i guess he would attempt to kill sasuke so obito has no other option than reviving him. Killing obito for betrayal would be unintelligent, since he's the only one capable of rinne tensei.
    We know that Tobi needs Sasuke for something because he has said since very early on that obtaining Sasuke is the most important part of his plan. Tobi also does not have the Eternal Mangekyou and cannot obtain it himself so I am guessing that means he cannot use the Eternal Tsukiyomi. Tobi said recently that he still doesn't trust Madara and he doesn't consider Madara an ally. It's hard to say but my guess is that Tobi has come to realize that Madara is not going to use the Eternal Tsukiyomi in the way that said he was going to. Obito has watched Sasuke grow up, he knows Sasuke very well, my guess is that Obito has more faith that Sasuke will use the power of the Juubi in the way that he wants, to create a paradise where all the dead are alive and well. Sasuke is the only person living who has the potential to awaken the Rinnegan the way Madara did because he is the only one with the Eternal Mangekyou. Obito himself just has Madara's old Rinnegan but that doesn't seem to be sufficient to use the Eternal Tsukiyomi. I believe that Obito has been planning to overthrow Madara for a very long time, but he can't do it himself, he needs someone like Sasuke who is the height of Uchiha potential. Obito has been forcing Sasuke's powers to grow and putting him in dangerous battles to make him stronger. We also know that Obito planned to Sync Sasuke with the Juubi.

    Based on what Madara himself has said, it seems like Obito wanted to get Sasuke to do all of the things that Madara intended to do himself. Madara has no apparent knowledge of Sasuke so that seems to indicate that Sasuke's involvement in the plan was part of Obito's own agenda. It seems strange that Obito put such a high value on Sasuke when now it seems like he is totally unnecessary if Madara can simply become the Juubi's Jinnchuuriki and use the Eternal Mangekyou himself. Obito must have come to realize long ago that Madara was just using him but he himself still needed to perform the Eternal Tsukiyomi so he began to look for a replacement, someone capable of matching Madara's power.

    Madara being resurrected was not part of Obito's plan and actually put him in a very difficult position. Looking back, Obito was very disturbed by Madara's revival he even called Kabuto mad. Also, Obito seemed to change his plans when Madara entered the equation. Originally Obito said that he was planning to have Sasuke and Naruto fight but that plan seemed to change when Kabuto and the Edo-Tensei got involved. Obito seemed almost desperate to have Kabuto reveal the secret of the Edo Tensei, and his attempt to revive the Juubi seemed a bit premature based on what he had said earlier on. Obito likely realized that to deal with Madara he would need to have the Juubi's power. Now that Madara is back and at the height of his power Obito has to play by his rules to a point but he has also made it clear that Madara needs him because he is currently the only one capable to resurrecting him. Obito seemed calm and collected as Tobi but he now seems to be breaking down, I think that is partly because things aren't going the way he intended them to.

  7. #127
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  8. #128
    Pervy Sage bluntman_exe's Avatar
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    It may be comforting to think that Orochimaru could be turning over a new leaf in preparation for some redemption. However I strongly believe that our favourite snakey shaker is playing a patient game. So far he has had plenty to gain by doing Sasuke's bidding, he's been brought back, he has obtained Kabuto's knowledge, he now has his arms back and has obtained a few useful things from the shinigami's belly as well as getting his hands on some zetsu which is something Kabuto requested from Tobi as part of their deal. The way I see it Sasuke will interrogate the former Hokage and get those answers to those burning questions, like finding out what really went down on the day the Kyuubi attacked Konoha and confirming that Tobi was playing him for a fool the whole time, etc. But then when Sasuke has all the answers he seeks and tells Oro to send the Hokages on their way I think that is the point where Oro will say "ya know what, nah-uh. I'd rather use these guys to overpower you so I can finally get that Uchiha body I've been after for so damn long" If Oro did manage to get Sasuke's body and infused Hashirama cells/chakra in there, he could potentially awaken the Rinnegan (granted he'd have to have some sort of trick up his sleeve that would ensure the Rinnegan is awakened much sooner than near the end of life)

    I think only the most ardent Uchitard wants to see a bratty emo get the rinnegan but if it were an orochimaru controlled Sasuke that had the Rinnegan, that could be interesting. It's not as if we haven't already seen Naruto fight a rinnegan user, hell he's fought 3 of em already. Even though it wouldn't exactly be the Naruto vs Sasuke battle royale we've been hotly anticipating for years a battle against a superfreak Oro/Sasuke to free Sasuke and the ninja world from Orochimaru could be an interesting twist.

  9. #129
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    with the new chapter out we got insights pertaining to many valid concerns and other points which deserve more discussion of this chapter even though the newer chapter is released.

    1) the scroll and why orochimaru did not fix himself sooner?

    kabuto was quite possibly unaware of the scroll thus denying the potential of pulling off what we see in 619. it was orochimaru's super.secret scroll, not kabuto's. orochimaru, although successfully acquiring the knowledge and direction to remedy his curse, undo the greatest seal we know of as well as summon the leaf's kages.. the obvious answer is that while oro was alive getting through konoha and to the outlying uzumaki shrine or uchiha hifeout would be an entirely different ball game than simply walking through a ghost town and reaching an unattended ruin. logically, the leaf would increase security with a direct focus of countering orochimaru after his attack on the leaf. it's just reasonably near impossible for his ability to approach konoha after his attack failed.

    2) knowledge and ability to perform dead demon seal is still technically a separate performance and knowedge from undoing the seal. minato, who used the seal appears to be likely ignorant of the unsealing method given the amazed nature and more importantly, his wording, of how he asked orochimaru how he pulled it off. the role of the mask, as it stands, could possibly be unknown to both minato and sarutobi. most importantly, the new chapter has sarutobi explaining that interest in old ways and tech was no longer of interest and except for a few, it had dropped from general knowledge and practice.

    3) orochimaru says don't underestimate him. that is very true, if anyone could surprise us they way we were in 618 it's gotta be oro!

    4) his downtime was a couple years and wad wide open to grant him discoveries which elude even minato and sarutobi. i dare say such discoveries contribute to his change in goal and personality.

    5) gods are still ambiguous. shikifujin could be the reflection of power and image granted to humans by the real death god, the seal actually using something between vicar and token. it's too soon to say and i share frustrations not knowing.

    i am satisfied with the answers 619 gave for the questions 618 raised.

    '
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    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

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