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  1. #71
    Senior Member Jean-Marie's Avatar
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    1)
    Why Oro and Kabuto didn't sommon the 4 hokage before?
    The mask and scroll aren't enough. You need to be in Konoha in the Ushiha basement too. They didn't succeed in getting there.


    2)
    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Originally Posted by Temperjoke : "an Oro-redemption would come out of the blue. Nothing happened that would make him reconsider his position. He may be a key-character, but redemption... Although, with Kishi, you never know"

    O.o I didn't say that
    You're right. Sorry about that. It was in an answer from Lakritze to your post. I wonder how this went wrong.

  2. #72
    I'll be waiting, be sure. Yoru's Avatar
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    If there's one thing that bothers me, that is how poorly guarded was the uzumaki shrine. I expected them to place seals of all sorts to protect the keys to undoing the demon god seal.

  3. #73
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoru View Post
    I think that was not a literal death god, Paul. It's just a seal of the uzumaki clan, and we still need to learn what was it used for in their history.
    But as any technique that has a weak point, every seal has a key, or an anti-seal that undoes it. Seals were created by humans, and nothing created by humans is perfect nor eternal and not even inviolable. The death god seal, just as any other sealing jutsu, has its drawbacks

    -it kills the user of the jutsu
    -it's easy to undo, if one knows exactly how

    the difficuties of this however are:
    -One has first to find out HOW to release demon god tech. It might be very very difficult to find the information needed, and only someone as sneaky as oro could do it.
    -it kills the one who releases it (which means the user will be required to sacrifice himself)
    -without the knowledge of edo tensei, undoing the seal is pretty much useless, unless you want to just free your loved ones from the seal.

    So it seems pretty much logical to me that this technique can be undone, if it was first MADE, that is, BULIT, there has obviously to be a means to UNMAKING, thus DESTROYING it. Funny enough..even oro said something like this: everything that has form, sooner or later disgregates. There may be techniques more difficult to undo, but they always CAN be undone. Nothing is eternal.
    Yoru, I think my sentiments are guided (or misguided) by how I interpreted Kishimoto's meanings. The Ski-Fuuin, or Death Demon seal, Did it or Does it imply the existense of a Shinigami or not. So if there were a Shinigami, a powerful supernatural being who held sway over the realm of the dead, such an entity should remain inviolate except if a Higher Supernatural Entity were to overule it.

    It does now seem that Kishimoto does not explicitly imply the existence of a real Shinigami, or if it did exist, it is totally different from the one implied by the seal. In any case, there should be some Natural/Supernatural safeguard to the Natural Order in the Universe, where death and the dead are not being Violated at will by every stupid Ninja with a Sacrifice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoru View Post
    If there's one thing that bothers me, that is how poorly guarded was the uzumaki shrine. I expected them to place seals of all sorts to protect the keys to undoing the demon god seal.
    I totally agree. The destruction of the Uzumaki village would have happened during Sandaime's reign, and given how he knew about the dead demon seal, it would have stood to reason that anything valuable there would have been placed under lock and key. It just seemed implausible that Konoha would not have thoroughly investigated both the Uchiha and Uzumaki places.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
    Growing Old Gracefully is an Oxymoron ... Mostly Moron !

  4. #74
    Well, I guess the mask was a closely guarded Uzumaki jutso that even Konoha wasn't aware of. I wonder if there are other uzamaki's still surviving around the world.
    UNLEASH THE GREEN BEAST OF KONOHA

  5. #75
    Senior Member Temperjoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Yoru, I think my sentiments are guided (or misguided) by how I interpreted Kishimoto's meanings. The Ski-Fuuin, or Death Demon seal, Did it or Does it imply the existense of a Shinigami or not. So if there were a Shinigami, a powerful supernatural being who held sway over the realm of the dead, such an entity should remain inviolate except if a Higher Supernatural Entity were to overule it.

    It does now seem that Kishimoto does not explicitly imply the existence of a real Shinigami, or if it did exist, it is totally different from the one implied by the seal. In any case, there should be some Natural/Supernatural safeguard to the Natural Order in the Universe, where death and the dead are not being Violated at will by every stupid Ninja with a Sacrifice.



    I totally agree. The destruction of the Uzumaki village would have happened during Sandaime's reign, and given how he knew about the dead demon seal, it would have stood to reason that anything valuable there would have been placed under lock and key. It just seemed implausible that Konoha would not have thoroughly investigated both the Uchiha and Uzumaki places.
    For all we know, they did investigate the locations, but the Uchiha one might have required an Uchiha to open. For that matter the Uzumaki shrine might have have a guard or two, but with the war going, they were pulled for other tasks. I mean, to the casual observer, it's a broken down shine with a bunch of creepy masks a distance away from the village. Not exactly where people commonly go, especially during a full scale war.

  6. #76
    I'll be waiting, be sure. Yoru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Yoru, I think my sentiments are guided (or misguided) by how I interpreted Kishimoto's meanings. The Ski-Fuuin, or Death Demon seal, Did it or Does it imply the existense of a Shinigami or not. So if there were a Shinigami, a powerful supernatural being who held sway over the realm of the dead, such an entity should remain inviolate except if a Higher Supernatural Entity were to overule it.

    It does now seem that Kishimoto does not explicitly imply the existence of a real Shinigami, or if it did exist, it is totally different from the one implied by the seal. In any case, there should be some Natural/Supernatural safeguard to the Natural Order in the Universe, where death and the dead are not being Violated at will by every stupid Ninja with a Sacrifice.



    I totally agree. The destruction of the Uzumaki village would have happened during Sandaime's reign, and given how he knew about the dead demon seal, it would have stood to reason that anything valuable there would have been placed under lock and key. It just seemed implausible that Konoha would not have thoroughly investigated both the Uchiha and Uzumaki places.
    There seem not to be real supernatural beings in narutoverse. Everything we see was created starting from the juubi and rikudou: all justu, all seals, all weapons (both physical or spiritual) were created thanks to the yin yang jutsus or something similar. I bet some ancestor of the uzumaki, strongly connected to the rikudou created the death god jutsu and shaped some of his spiritual energy in the form of the shinigami, attributing it certain properties. I hope we'll get to learn soon about the details: sandaime might give them to us, cuz we deserve explanation. However i wouldn't call this a plothole of kishi, but just a misiterpretation on your side. This can fit the story way better than the obito question.

    And about guarding the shrine, i imagined that if they tried to steal the mask, some sort of being, or demon would awaken, or a sealing jutsu that would prevent them from moving or breathing or any other thing to make it more difficult. I think kishi is trying to save time by semplifying things. Too bad he's makiing the story less credible.

  7. #77
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    I don't see why oro would need any dna to summon the 1, 2, and 4 kages. He has summoned them before, and kabuto showed that he could resummon to any location previously summoned edos. I don't remember seeing additional sacrifices or dna then.

  8. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by tsubasa View Post
    also I find it funny that before he was going after a uchiha user. he was so focused on extending his life to gain power, but in his haste to gain power he ignored a the bloodline that has power that parallels the uchiha (uzumaki), a bloodline that ironically is known for extended life energy! not to mention a clan known for sealing which could have gone a long way in helping him.
    Damn good point.
    Well I always call Oro a somewhat very shortsighted 'idiot'.
    There are more things in heaven and earth then is dreamt of in your philosophy

  9. #79
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoru View Post
    There seem not to be real supernatural beings in narutoverse. Everything we see was created starting from the juubi and rikudou: all justu, all seals, all weapons (both physical or spiritual) were created thanks to the yin yang jutsus or something similar. I bet some ancestor of the uzumaki, strongly connected to the rikudou created the death god jutsu and shaped some of his spiritual energy in the form of the shinigami, attributing it certain properties. I hope we'll get to learn soon about the details: sandaime might give them to us, cuz we deserve explanation. However i wouldn't call this a plothole of kishi, but just a misiterpretation on your side. This can fit the story way better than the obito question.

    And about guarding the shrine, i imagined that if they tried to steal the mask, some sort of being, or demon would awaken, or a sealing jutsu that would prevent them from moving or breathing or any other thing to make it more difficult. I think kishi is trying to save time by semplifying things. Too bad he's makiing the story less credible.
    I don't know what did Oro mean by saying that you have to allow the Shinigami of the Shiki Fuiin posses you, Kishi is being vague again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonZypher View Post
    I don't see why oro would need any dna to summon the 1, 2, and 4 kages. He has summoned them before, and kabuto showed that he could resummon to any location previously summoned edos. I don't remember seeing additional sacrifices or dna then.


    1) Because Oro in this chapter Used Four Brand new Sacrifices (the 4 Zetsus), He was without doubt redoing the whole ET jutsu, if so, then he needs new DNA.

    2) I was wrong when I said there was no new DNA used, In fact there was although Kishi did not show us the DNA being used. We know that Oro used fresh DNA because he himself said so.



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  10. #80
    I'll be waiting, be sure. Yoru's Avatar
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    Well, paul. The shinigami could be a spiritual creature created with a jutsu a looong time ago, maybe by the rikudou himself. The being is autonomous so it can possess a human being.

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