Can kakashi use hidden mist?

[yutterh]

I am on another board talking about whether or not kakashi can use the technique. i take whatever you guys say is truth. Pretty much the debate boils down to he wasn't shown to use it in manga so he doesn't have it. I figured since he is know to copy over a thousand jutsu's that it was canon that he is capable of it. I am repeatedly told from one person on the forum that mangas dont work that way and another confirmed with him. Can someone explain why i may be correct or may be wrong. Is it possible to post the forum so you all can read and inform on this topic or would that be considered advertisement?

[StareIntoMySharingan]

It's more logical, by far, to believe that Kakashi has access to the Hidden Mist jutsu. Kakashi had the Sharingan activated before and while Zabuza used the mentioned technique; and more importantly, Kakashi has also been shown, in the same battle, to be able to not only use Suiton chakra/techniques, but use it/them proficiently.

[yutterh]

this is the guys response

"Then they're wrong. You can't say Kakashi can use the hidden mist jutsu unless he uses it or someone says he can. Just like you can't say Sasuke can use shadow clones just because he's seen Naruto use them while he had his sharingan active. Seeing a technique isn't the same as copying it. There's no evidence to suggest Kakashi has copied the hidden mist jutsu. Could he? Sure. Has he? The lack of evidence suggests no. You can assume all you like, but without concrete proof, it gets you nowhere."

[StareIntoMySharingan]

this is the guys response

"Then they're wrong. You can't say Kakashi can use the hidden mist jutsu unless he uses it or someone says he can. Just like you can't say Sasuke can use shadow clones just because he's seen Naruto use them while he had his sharingan active. Seeing a technique isn't the same as copying it. There's no evidence to suggest Kakashi has copied the hidden mist jutsu. Could he? Sure. Has he? The lack of evidence suggests no. You can assume all you like, but without concrete proof, it gets you nowhere."

It is when it comes to the Sharingan, some Sharingan techniques require a conscious initial to be taken by its user for them to be activated; Izanami, Izanagi, Amaterasu, Kamui, Tsukuyomi, and Genjutsu are examples of this.

While other abilities of the Sharingan are already active as long as the Sharingan is active itself, there is no need for the Sharingan user to consciously use them, just as one doesn't choose to see if their eyes are already opened, the eye sees automatically, you just need the eye to be activated, or in the case of this example, epen; these are default capabilities of the Sharingan. Examples of these are seeing chakra as color, predicting movements of opponents, seeing through jutsus(as well as the mechanics behind such jutsus, thereby learning how such jutsus are performed; this allows the Sharingan user to perform the technique if they have the necessary requirements.)

When Kakashi viewed Zabuza use his Hidden Mist technique, Kakashu saw through it and the mechanics behind it. All he needs now would be to learn how to use Suiton and go back in his memory, and perform the jutsu already copied and learned.

This is key so that you may understand the simple logic. Can someone have the Sharingan activated and choose, while it's activated that is, to NOT view chakra as color? There's no reason, or hint of evidence, to believe such things.

These are the reasons why it's MORE logical to believe that Kakashi could use the Hidden Mist technique rather than believing he can't. Notice that I'm saying it's more logical, not absolutely the case, such decisions are for Kishi to make, not us, we can only speculate, and some speculations are more reasonable than others.

To conclude, it's more reasonable to believe Kakashi has access to the Hidden Mist technique to believe he does not.

[Majere]

Since the Sharingan allows it's wielder to predict movement or if you prefer, see things in slow motion, and move according to that, it is possible that Kakashi or any other Sharingan user can see the seals needed to perform hidden mist if such Sharigan wielder has affinity to the element used in the technique (in the case of hidden mist, it's water).

If Kakashi doesn't as affinity, even if little, with the suiton element, he cannot do water techniques, he can see how to do it, but cannot perform them.
But in this case, he should be able to do it if he wants to. His primary element affinity is Raiton (Lightning), he them trained in order to also use, Doton (Earth) and Suiton (Water), a Jounin level shinobi, normally has at least 2 elements, he has 3. In the anime, he is also able to use Katon (Fire), but taking the manga has reference he is able to use 3 elements "only".

To sum it up with an example: If he could see Danzo perform one of the wind element techniques, that he used against Sasuke, he wouldn't be able to replicate it, unless he could develop affinity with the wind element and perform it if we wanted (or remembered) to.

The Sharigan grants it's user with the ability to see/copy movements/seals, but cannot grant element affinity that the techniques require, that as to be an affinity between the Shinobi with certain element.

[Zero]

Almost all techniques that are not pure one elemental, need (a little) chakra of different affinities to perform them (that's what the hand seals are for, since it's hard to control chakra of other than your main affinity, I think ;P). Each human has chakra that is made of those 5 affinities, but their proportions differ greatly. In Kakashi's case, I would say it's around 50% Lightning type, 30% Water, 15% Earth, 3% Fire and 2% Wind (it's only a guess, it might be different ;P). We saw him doing S rank Raiton jutsu and A rank Suiton jutsu, so those would be his main and his second main element, plus he was shown to do C-D rank Doton jutsu. You can notice that his weakest elements, are polar opposite of his strongest ones (it's probably normal for those without kekkei genkai based on fusing elements).

The Sharingan copies all non-kekkei genkai jutsu, but it depends on the user if he can actually use them. Kakashi being known as the only Copy Ninja, proves that he was a genius even before obtaining the Sharingan, since there is absolutely no other mention of other Sharingan user to be capable of performing that many of the jutsu he saw. Basically, there were many people with Sharingan, that allows copying, but there is only one Copy Ninja.

Since, Kakashi already proved to be capable of using/copying A rank water jutsu and is exceptional at copying jutsu, I would say that he is in fact capable of using it and since he saw it with his Sharigan, he should know how to do it as well. Still, Zabuza would probably be better at it, since he has more experience and is more suited for it.

[yutterh]

Thanks for all the help guys, but i don't think he will change his mind ever lol So its all good thanks for giving me fuel for the fire. Knew i can rely on this group here is his last comment before zero's comment.

You're really not getting it. Kakashi can't use hidden mist because he's not suggested that he can, and never demonstrated that he can. The sharingan's "passive" ability isn't to copy jutsu. Whenever we've seen it copy ninjutsu, it has been the user following along as the opponent formed the handseals, causing the two jutsu to occur at the same time - ala Kakashi copying Zabuza's water dragon. It is something the user has to want to do. If it wasn't, then people would be going around saying Itachi can use chidori, Sasuke can use shadow clones and presumably rasengan as well.

"I am not saying that Kakashi is unable to learn it. He's completely capable of learning it. In the same way that Tsunade is completely capable of learning shadow clones and Sakura is completely capable of learning some form of offensive genjutsu. I am saying that there is zero concrete evidence that he actually has learnt it. If a sharingan user copied every single jutsu they've ever seen, Sasuke would be spamming a lot more than Susanoo right now.

Edit: I'm not saying you can't assume he can. Just like people can assume Konan made all 600 billion of her paper bombs with a jutsu we've not seen. But there's not enough evidence to say "yes, that happened", so overall, it's not treated as fact. If Kakashi had the hidden mist jutsu, he's had ample time and numerous perfect opportunities to use it, but hasn't. It's one of the only ways to fight a sharingan or rinnegan user effectively, yet Kakashi has gone up against both several times now, and still hasn't used it. Ergo, I can make the assumption he doesn't have it. And lack of evidence that he does have it makes my assumption > yours."

[Zero]

Tell him that Sasuke was able to copy Lee's Shadow Jump Technique (or whatever that was called, you know the start of Lion Combo and the first lotus) as well as his other moves, without doing it consciously. Only later on he showed that he can use them after seeing them just once (thought he needed to train to match his speed).

As to why Kakashi didn't use the jutsu, well the Hidden Mist jutsu is a wide area jutsu and not many people can, as effectively as Zabuza, move in it (beside there are many ways to counter it). Seeing as Kakashi is almost always working with a team, it might very well lead to their demise/disadvantage. Not to mention that when Zabuza first used it, Kakashi mentions that Zabuza needed to gather a great amount of chakra to cast it, so it's another reason why Kakashi doesn't use it, since it costs a lot of chakra and it is simply more effective to hide underground (better cover and less chakra is used up). Beside, the hidden mist, is a jutsu that is rather more effective against a group/a lot of enemies and well Kakashi's side almost always have the advantage in numbers .

[Majere]

To add something to Zero's point.

Mist village shinobi probably train and are accustomed to see inside the mist jutsu since they are young, so if Kakashi would use it, he himself isn't accustomed to see trough it, his team mates wouldn't also be capable, and could resort to back to back formation (like in the Zabuza fight), unless anyone of them had some kind of tracking.

It would be usefull if the members of his team were sensor or tracking type shinobi like Hinata, Neji, Shino or Kiba.
To use it, with team members that rely mostly (or even totally) in eyesight, would be almost suicide.

Not to mention that is own left eye is a sharigan, so it would be a counter to a sharigan opponent as well for a con towards his own eye.
One thing is what we know for sure because it has been shown to us (by manga or anime), the other are assumptions based on what we know to be true.

Hidden mist requires seals, chakra and element affinity, requirements that Kakashi we know (seen in the manga) have.
Now, if Kishi would show us, every jutsu that all characters can perform, it would take lots of chapters just to prove something that in Kakashi case, is "common sense".

In your friends case, shinobi, must be born in eggs, since it was never proven/seen that shinobi do mate with women

Your friend is correct in one thing, the sharigan passive ability isn't to copy, it allows one to predict movements.
In the VOTE battle between Sasuke and Naruto, when Sasuke sharigan became 3 tomoe's, he could predict (see before hand) where Naruto's punches were going to hit.
The "copy" ability is just that, to predict/see before hand (milliseconds) what are the seals that the opponent is going to cast, so a person just has to do the same had seals.

Any Sharigan user can "copy" a jutsu, but seeing that, normally all those had both eyes they didn't bother to use such tactics, they would prefer to use they own genjutsu and ninjutsu's, while Kakashi only uses his, in serious situations and so, to not let those situations to drag on, he resorted to copy jutsu's the even battle's or turn them in his side.

The only thing we cannot assume, his that he can remember all of those 1000+ techniques hand seals, one thing is to do it at sometime, the other is to he himself remember them forever

[Asamoya]

I'm sure Kakashi uses the technique in the anime vs Itachi. It was during a canon arc (not filler), but it was an extra scene (not in manga as far as I know).
I guess there's no point really arguing about it, anime suggests he can use it, manga does not say either way.