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Thread: A Question

  1. #11
    Katana swinging nutcase ChaosRising's Avatar
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    Rukia is hardly a low level shinigami. First she is strong enough to be a ranked officer, second she is a member of a noble family. Are you under the impression that Byakuya would have his (wife's and thus his by marriage) sister taught by some low level loremaster? I guess the most logical answer to your lack of conviction in the basis for reincarnation being a integral part of the Bleach universe is the fact that it is a Japanese comic, not exactly a stronghold for Christian opinions on the afterlife.


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  2. #12
    Regular Member Narhbos's Avatar
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    Uhhh ok whichever Soul Society is, so far we know it's basically a place where departed Plus Souls go to. They seem to have animals there yes (normal ones e.g. cats, birds) so we can assume that souls of dead animals also reach SS, like a direct transition... so I don't think it's similar to Christian's Limbo and there's no 'reincarnation' cause the souls memories are still intact and they don't revert to infants... it's just an original 'place of afterlife' in the Bleach Universe.

    But anyways, taking direct transition into account... Komamura is no normal animal... he's the only bipedal fox that can talk... there can't possibly be such a creature in their real world (e.g. Karakura) could there?

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  3. #13
    †gangsta† kryu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosRising View Post
    Rukia is hardly a low level shinigami. First she is strong enough to be a ranked officer, second she is a member of a noble family. Are you under the impression that Byakuya would have his (wife's and thus his by marriage) sister taught by some low level loremaster?
    and i wonder how the hell did a weak ass hollow rape her in the first episode/chapter.
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  4. #14
    The Irish Cougar MountainLionLink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kryu View Post
    and i wonder how the hell did a weak ass hollow rape her in the first episode/chapter.
    Well you could go back and read the original opening chapters to figure that question of yours out.

    Anyways, my question about Bleach has always been this. If a shinigami or hollow dies, what happens to them? Ponder that paradox people...
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  5. #15
    ♥ ibiza anjuna's Avatar
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    You're looking for an explanation that isn't there.

    Komamura is a tacked on character with no real reason to exist. Something as simple as a reason behind his appearance is unknown. One has to wonder why he decided to create 13 Squads, half of which have pointless Taichōs and Fukutaichōs with little to no background or purpose.

    Even our primary antagonists, Aizen, Gin, Tousen, are underdeveloped. As a reader/viewer, I have little reason to WANT to hate them.

    Watch the action and don't think about the plot. It has too many holes.

  6. #16
    The Irish Cougar MountainLionLink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anjuna View Post
    Even our primary antagonists, Aizen, Gin, Tousen, are underdeveloped. As a reader/viewer, I have little reason to WANT to hate them.

    Watch the action and don't think about the plot. It has too many holes.
    Very true, except for the little incidents that happened in the Soul Society arc. There is no reason to hate the three deserters. Aizen could have had a lot of villain heat applied to him but instead it was used on Byakuya.

    Every manga has this issue somewhere though, where the current story arc makes no sense and the reader wonders what happened to the glory of the previous arcs. Which is what I'm thinking currently, is anyone else?
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  7. #17
    Regular Member Narhbos's Avatar
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    Alright, so it was a random question that came after a random strange thought but I posted it here to get responses from the Bleach Fandom itself. Perhaps some of them have heard of the reasons that fills the plot-holes.

    However, that's a very good answer you put up right there, Anjuna. Though rather strict but it's factual and I do agree with it.

    Also to the question of "What happens when Hollow/Shinigami dies?"... we could again take it as another plot-hole but my guess is that they get 'reincarnated' into the Real World after death perhaps.

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  8. #18
    ♥ ibiza anjuna's Avatar
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    Oh, absolutely. The current Hueco Mundo arc has very little of the emotional charge that was present in the Soul Society arc. The entire Bankai concept, to me, has lost pretty much all of its mystique. It's a costume change at this point. Hollow Mask is turning into that as well, unfortunately. That, to me, is a little funny in itself considering that we haven't even seen the Bankais of SEVERAL Captains. I feel he's really writing himself into a corner with battle after battle after battle. It'd be nice to see a little emotion from this supposedly unbreakable band of close friends who would go to the ends of the world to protect each other. Right now, they're separated, no one even remembers Sado and Rukia, and personally, I'm beginning to forget the reason why they're there in the first place. Further, yes, Soul Society refuses to help, whatever, but I'd really love a little bit of reason and emotion in the plot here. Surely Byakuya realizes his sister is gone -- why doesn't he come to protect her? I thought he dropped the whole "follow the rules no matter what" attitude a little. This is the man that took Shinsou in the chest to protect Rukia. He already lost Hisana (and promised her to protect Rukia), and now Rukia's potentially dead (again, no one knows anything for dozens of chapters) in Hueco Mundo. But, hey, maybe he's not concerned about her potentially dying. I mean, who would be with deus ex machina characters like Inoue around? What's the point of writing this if it's just going to be meaningless later on? Just one example.

    Yeah, we get it, the Espada are overwhelmingly strong. Let's wrap it up, please, and try to make a little sense in doing so.
    ------------------------------------------
    Oh, and to be clear, I'm not trying to bash Bleach. I really love the series and the concept (or I wouldn't have invested so many hours into it) but it's a little upsetting to see such great potential being used poorly, at least in my eyes.

    Oh, and there's also the entire side concept of.. uh, how can any of the Captains feasibly fight any of the Espada? I'd really love an answer on that. For example, Ichigo does not stand a chance without his Hollow Mask. Period. And, to my knowledge, none of the Captains have anything stronger than a simple Bankai.

    I guess the answer would be we're not to expect anything out of Soul Society and that it'll be up to the Vizards who are the only ones who can conceivably help defeat the Espada, especially in their released forms. But then the question becomes -- why was Soul Society developed to be so weak? Although, that's a pretty loaded question, however, I will say that if a Captain is able to defeat a released Espada in a one vs one situation with only Bankai, it will be extremely inconsistent with the relative power levels that have been established. Although, how can I talk about inconsistency if an unarmed Ichigo is able to put down three Vice-Captains in seconds? Heh.

    Which returns to my previous statement: watch Bleach for the action, not the plot, because it is developing into nonsense.
    Last edited by anjuna; 09-09-2007 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  9. #19
    Vorpal Chestertonian BillDoors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosRising View Post
    Rukia is hardly a low level shinigami. First she is strong enough to be a ranked officer, second she is a member of a noble family. Are you under the impression that Byakuya would have his (wife's and thus his by marriage) sister taught by some low level loremaster? I guess the most logical answer to your lack of conviction in the basis for reincarnation being a integral part of the Bleach universe is the fact that it is a Japanese comic, not exactly a stronghold for Christian opinions on the afterlife.
    Am I sensing some hostility here? Relax, I'm not insulting your mother, and I'm not trying to step on anybody's toes (or other sensitive parts, for that matter). Just putting forth some thoughts and ideas. Not that I have to explain myself to you, but if you look at my post a second time and restrain yourself from the urge to jump down my throat (God forbid somebody mention Christianity in terms of literary interpretation!), you might see that I was being not just a little glib - as I am here, to an extent. The humor is killed when you have to point it out, though, so I may as well just clarify my position.

    You're misunderstanding me. I wasn't talking about power-levels, I was talking about rank. My apologies for my imprecise choice of language - but I think it was fairly obvious that I was only saying that Rukia is not a seated officer, which you acknowledge. She is, officially, a grunt, who was only assigned grunt-missions before the whole mess with Ichigo and losing her powers. It seems her talents are receiving more attention after Byakuya relaxed his deathgrip on her career advancement, but unless I skipped a chapter somewhere she's still an unseated grunt. Tough luck for her, but that's the military bureaucracy for you. Rank and social power have as much pull in the Seireitei as objective power, if not more - which is why that one fat idiot is Lieutenant of Squad 2, who is implied to be otherwise unqualified for that position. It works both ways, too - Byakuya used his pull as a noble and a Captain to keep Rukia "benched."

    As for her position as a noble - you might take another look at the relevant chapters in the SS arc. All Byakuya did for Rukia was use his influence to graduate her early, apparently causing her to skip out on at least some of her education (Renji was in advanced classes by that time). He didn't seem particularly concerned for her education to me, and in Rukia's flashbacks she was clearly green, even for a rookie. The fact that Rukia, who in her childhood demonstrated much greater talents than Renji, has been so vastly surpassed by him in the same span of time, should speak to the quality of her education in the Shinigami arts. She herself admits that certain of her skills (namely, her swordplay) are underdeveloped. Byakuya did her no favors by artificially graduating her like he did.

    I use the phrase "loremasters" lightly, in any case - but we know that some knowledge is restricted to Captains only, such as the existence of the King's Key, so it wouldn't be terribly surprising if recruits fresh out of the academy are a bit lacking in their theoretical understanding of the functioning of Soul Society. Unlike in Christian theology, it seems like souls here don't achieve perfect awareness when they die - in fact, unless they have inherently high spiritual pressure, their awareness rapidly decays until they forget their past-lives entirely, it seems like.

    In case you missed it, I never said "Soul Society = Limbo." I said it bore more of a resemblance, IMO, to Limbo than it did to my (admittedly limited) understanding of Eastern religious concepts of the afterlife; it's clearly not supposed to be a heavenly paradise, in any case. There are enough differences here that saying a=b is an untenable position. That said, your refutation of even the suggestion of a theme informed by Western culture and religion is that "it's a Japanese comic, so it isn't likely to be concerned with Christianity." That's generally true, but a lot of mainstream manga and anime *do* make reference to and use Christian and Western symbolism, sometimes centrally. Take Fullmetal Alchemist, for example, and especially the anime version, which is blatantly inspired by the writings of Saint Augustine for the Seven Deadly Sins, and by Dante Alighieri (particularly The Divine Comedy) for refinements of the notion of the Sins corresponding to the nature of the "sin" committed by the Alchemist who created them (and as a reference to the character Dante, obviously). Just because KT is Japanese doesn't mean he's ignorant of other cultures, or that he's even particularly invested in his own. Seeing as this particular comic is especially concerned with the nature of the afterlife, it's not so much of a stretch to be able to apply other interpretations of the afterlife to it than the "mainstream" of Japanese Buddhism. It might be a bit presumptuous to assume that Japan has remained, as a whole, uniquely devoted to it's cultural religious practices when the rest of the world seems to be mired in religious nominalism. The imagery is obviously and unquestionably informed by Japanese culture - you'll never hear my argue against that one. Strangely enough, though, you'll find that many cross-cultural legends and tales are dressed in the clothes of their region, irregardless of their most central - if perhaps least obvious - meanings. You don't have to be Japanese, much less particularly knowledgeable about Japanese culture, to use culturally Japanese imagery, symbolism, or meaning... nor do you have to be Christian or particularly knowledgeable about Christian cultures to use their imagery, symbolism, or meanings. Dan Brown is a prime example of that.

    I'm not saying that Bleach is one thing and not another - just that it is ambiguous, and that it's open to interpretation. Ultimately, KT's subtextual meanings, if any, can only be known definitively by himself - which is what forums like this are for, right? To look at this stuff, appreciate it, think about it, share our thoughts... yeah?

    To each his own, I guess. Cheers.
    Last edited by BillDoors; 09-09-2007 at 09:39 AM. Reason: clarity and unnecessary hostility
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  10. #20
    Regular Member Narhbos's Avatar
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    YES! Now I've found someone who likes the story but at the same time offers intelligent criticism into the storyline! Personally, I feel nearly the same as you do, Anjuna but I think (or rather believe) there's a reason behind it.

    A few suspicions of mine as to "Why most of the Captains were not revealed fully?" is perhaps to fool the readers into thinking that the best level a Captain can reach is that of Byakuya since he's portrayed as the "most powerful Captain opponent" for Ichigo. But then we were surprised when Aizen pops up and voila, we see a HUGE gap in the Captains power levels. I believe that certain Captains are incredibly powerful (e.g. Ukitake, Shunsui, Genryuusai etc) but Kubo deem it's not yet time to 'use' them yet and thus, keeps them 'hidden' for now.

    And yes, regarding the band of friends, I certainly agree he needs to reinforce the reason why their bonds are soo strong (though I doubt it'll be sorted out since this is a Shounen Manga). This I honestly didn't put much attention to (due to the later) and I think Ichigo's defeated friends are just gonna end up in another cell (like in SS).

    Next, as for Byakuya and Soul Society; yes Byakuya loosen his belief on rules but he still has his orders to follow. Knowing how powerful the Espada/Arrancar are, SS cannot just jump into HM and expect a total victory. Heck, Byakuya, Kenpachi and other officers was 'defeated' by Ichigo, they would be overwhelmed even before reaching Aizen. Obviously a "power-up" transition will be needed.

    But again, I do agree on your "only a change of costume" theory for the Bankai and Hollow Mask... it's nonsense. When they introduced Bankai, it was awesome, at least there was some sort of power levels to gauge upon... now it's all a mess with the Hollow Mask and Vizards and Arrancars with their Resurrecion. New and interesting items in the 'basket' but Kubo really needs to sort out his 'groceries' that he's offering us for dinner.

    Finally, Kubo is fond of symmetry. Judging from the way he writes so far, he likes making characters or situations that mirror a certain previous event or opponent. So forgive him if he regurgitates certain battles (though cool) are repetitive, he can't help it (I guess).

    Haha, now THIS is what a discussion board should be like especially regarding works of fiction... haha this active debate on the fiction's content is fun!

    Edit;
    Quote Originally Posted by BillDoors View Post
    Ultimately, KT's subtextual meanings, if any, can only be known definitively by himself - which is what forums like this are for, right? To look at this stuff, appreciate it, think about it, share our thoughts... yeah?
    From this statement alone, you've gained much love and respect from me and it should be officially quoted and sticky-ed somewhere in the forum.
    Last edited by Narhbos; 09-09-2007 at 09:24 AM.

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