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  1. #1
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Madara's mistakes with the 10 tails.

    Chapters 609 and 610 have challenged the reader's faith in the good guys' ability to triumph. An immortal Madara in possession of Hashirama's power, a warped minded Obito empowered by gifts and conceit of Madara, but most frighteningly, an emerging juubi that while incomplete, has incomprehensible power and is seemingly beyond vulnerability of any conventional attack. To make matters worse, the juubi was called and is bent to the will of Madara and Obito. Good grief!

    It seems, though, that the good guys must not simply triumph over impossible odds but that the bad guys must commit error in order to lose!

    So, we are sitting on two huge mistakes in Madara's judgement that can come into play at anytime and change the game.

    1) Madara does not have a way of gathering or using natural energy on his own. At best he must do it on some level through the juubi itself.

    2) He defines and recognizes the tailed beasts as something less than a person and merely a coalescence of chakra that must obey.

    These two mistakes, especially when considered together, demonstrate Madara's severe lack of understanding the forces he is trying to control. Even Kabuto recognizes the importance of using natural energy to reach the level of power the rikoudo wielded, Kabuto also learned much of the secret knowledge through hypothesis with Orochimaru that Madara learned in some respects, "effortlessly" through direct contact with the stone tablet.

    Naruto not only has a technique for utilizing natural energy but also has given the tailed beasts the recognition and respect as persons that Naruto himself suffered without. Naruto has already with the bijuu come to an understanding of each others side and ended that cycle of hate. When and how that will manifest in the struggle with the juubi is anyone's guess but with such a dramatic amount of natural energy gathered in the juubi, it seems like a blank canvas to me but which of the shinobi is the most qualified artist to give it shape and color?

    As amazing as Madara was in getting this far he really screwed the pooch by not fully understanding or recognizing the power he tries to control. Such a disrespectful ambition will cost him dearly no matter if he succeeds in capturing the 8 and 9 tails and completing the juubi.

    The mistakes don't end there, his pupil and protoge, Obito, is every second becoming a wild card. A wild card with some of the same crucial powers Madara has.

    Madara is arrogantly picking dismissing the traits of defeated shinobi in the idea that winning a fight is the right way to measure power, arrogantly assuming his edo tensei form affords him absolute security (this is admittedly arguable).

    For me, it's not a question of how can the good guys win but how much longer can the bad guys go on before that which they overlooked or dismissed comes into play and unravels all their effort. It's just a matter of time and naruto need only survive.

    Oh, and as for Sasuke, his Kirin technique was a foreshadowing element of himself and natural energy. Natural energy need not be simply understood as sage chakra but as the raw force in every rock, tree, and river. A gathering storm cloud that offers a lighting strike as Sasuke needs it is clear demonstration that he is capable of a relationship with those forces and the reader can go all day scaling the significance of sasuke 's kirin to possibilities of steering the juubi using the same principles.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  2. #2
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    It has been my theory for some time that the Jyuubi will break free and go berserk as they will loose control. As I said before it is like a force of nature like a tsunami & a hurricane controlling it with force for a prolonged time may not be possible.

    - I'm also thinking Kabuto may help out as he had that poison that limits Hashirama's abilities...if he placed some kind of fail safe inside of Edo Madara just in case he lost control for the poison to activate it would disrupt his ability to control he Mazu. It's also possible he could have placed some on Tobi as well just in case.

    - Actually the original idea was that they where suppose to become Jinchuuriki so that would mean they would need to seal the beast inside themselves first which would take time. However Tobi talks about starting the ritual soon and Madara says it takes time to summon the moon yet no talk of sealing the Jyuubi inside first.



    On a side note I'm wondering if Naruto suffers some injuries during this battle like he has his eye sight damaged so hes forced to use his sensor abilities during his fight with Sasuke. Ultimately at the end Sasuke gives Naruto his eyes at the end of the manga. Sakura helps put them in Naruto then he awakens the Rinnengan and deals with rampaging Jyuubi.


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  3. #3
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    It has been my theory for some time that the Jyuubi will break free and go berserk as they will loose control. As I said before it is like a force of nature like a tsunami & a hurricane controlling it with force for a prolonged time may not be possible.

    - I'm also thinking Kabuto may help out as he had that poison that limits Hashirama's abilities...if he placed some kind of fail safe inside of Edo Madara just in case he lost control for the poison to activate it would disrupt his ability to control he Mazu. It's also possible he could have placed some on Tobi as well just in case.

    - Actually the original idea was that they where suppose to become Jinchuuriki so that would mean they would need to seal the beast inside themselves first which would take time. However Tobi talks about starting the ritual soon and Madara says it takes time to summon the moon yet no talk of sealing the Jyuubi inside first.



    On a side note I'm wondering if Naruto suffers some injuries during this battle like he has his eye sight damaged so hes forced to use his sensor abilities during his fight with Sasuke. Ultimately at the end Sasuke gives Naruto his eyes at the end of the manga. Sakura helps put them in Naruto then he awakens the Rinnengan and deals with rampaging Jyuubi.
    Well I would absolutely love it if kishi does in fact allow events to be influenced by foreseen (by the reader) or unforeseen actions by way of kabuto's precautions and sheer genius. The manga could use, IMO, more instances of brains over brawn that lasts longer than stroking the crux of a single battle. I become more interested in kabuto everytime madara advances in this battle because kabuto struggled harder with less direct advantages than the sharingan but reached an impressive level so far in his way of becoming the next rikoudo.

    The poison you reminded me about gets me even more hooked and looking forward to kabuto having a prominent third position in this struggle aside from the obvious two ways of the bloodlines. His accomplishments and unique angle are a good contrast to senju vs uchiha and would be welcome in the mix that has been running risk of uncontrollable near cosmic power. Orochimaru, by being surpassed by kabuto has been relegated to a different role and position which should facilitate sasuke's development.

    The final struggle, yeah, will it be sasuke and naruto harmonizing and knowing how and when to rely on each other even to the point of fractions of a second maneuvers within a shinobi battle against the final boss or will it become a matter of who sacrifices what to empower the other.

    Anyway, without getting ahead and staying on topic, the sharingan itself would be an intriguing means of Madara's undoing. With obito becoming a wild card and talk-no-jutsu setting in, i really want to see the kamui pair of eyes reach their potential in this unique way of two casters yet also a strong bond the likes of which the manga makes a point to stress. More than a few of us, I'm sure, half expect kakashi and obito to permanently seal madara in the kamui dimension (which i still believe is the moon). It would be even better if obito warps himself into a solid structure in the kamui dimension, a solid structure with possible.sealing qualities but brings madara with him to be locked in the same structure and bound by the edo tensei rules so he is in permanent regeneration but it can never complete because of the loophole of physicality being warped into solid matter causes. Obito might die but would be poetic sacrificial atonement. Especially if kamui is confirmed to be the moon/sealing stone of the juubi's body.

    Another cool possibility is once obito reestablishes his bond with kakashi they can awaken susanoo! They might both be in close proximity /back to back to form it or better yet, according to idea of relationships and reliance on comrades, they each get half susanoo power, one offense characteristics and the other defense characteristics. Not sure how such forms would appear or if each would take the appearance of "half" the same way zetsu and obito himself show but it would be very thrilling and exciting tag team combo combat for a few chapters.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  4. #4
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    Well I would absolutely love it if kishi does in fact allow events to be influenced by foreseen (by the reader) or unforeseen actions by way of kabuto's precautions and sheer genius. The manga could use, IMO, more instances of brains over brawn that lasts longer than stroking the crux of a single battle. I become more interested in kabuto everytime madara advances in this battle because kabuto struggled harder with less direct advantages than the sharingan but reached an impressive level so far in his way of becoming the next rikoudo.

    The poison you reminded me about gets me even more hooked and looking forward to kabuto having a prominent third position in this struggle aside from the obvious two ways of the bloodlines. His accomplishments and unique angle are a good contrast to senju vs uchiha and would be welcome in the mix that has been running risk of uncontrollable near cosmic power. Orochimaru, by being surpassed by kabuto has been relegated to a different role and position which should facilitate sasuke's development.

    The final struggle, yeah, will it be sasuke and naruto harmonizing and knowing how and when to rely on each other even to the point of fractions of a second maneuvers within a shinobi battle against the final boss or will it become a matter of who sacrifices what to empower the other.

    Anyway, without getting ahead and staying on topic, the sharingan itself would be an intriguing means of Madara's undoing. With obito becoming a wild card and talk-no-jutsu setting in, i really want to see the kamui pair of eyes reach their potential in this unique way of two casters yet also a strong bond the likes of which the manga makes a point to stress. More than a few of us, I'm sure, half expect kakashi and obito to permanently seal madara in the kamui dimension (which i still believe is the moon). It would be even better if obito warps himself into a solid structure in the kamui dimension, a solid structure with possible.sealing qualities but brings madara with him to be locked in the same structure and bound by the edo tensei rules so he is in permanent regeneration but it can never complete because of the loophole of physicality being warped into solid matter causes. Obito might die but would be poetic sacrificial atonement. Especially if kamui is confirmed to be the moon/sealing stone of the juubi's body.

    Another cool possibility is once obito reestablishes his bond with kakashi they can awaken susanoo! They might both be in close proximity /back to back to form it or better yet, according to idea of relationships and reliance on comrades, they each get half susanoo power, one offense characteristics and the other defense characteristics. Not sure how such forms would appear or if each would take the appearance of "half" the same way zetsu and obito himself show but it would be very thrilling and exciting tag team combo combat for a few chapters.
    first thing I don't see how kabuto is a genius, he screwed the world up because he thinks he thinks can do what he wants. Kabuto didn't even know what the major weakness of edo tensei even is. Cant wait to see his face now when tobi is allowed to kill kabuto now. maybe madara should do it, irony is good do for kabuto.

    Anyway, it would be nice to see the villain of the stort shift from shinobi and go to the juubi. That way the common enemy can show the shinobi world that this power of the beasts cant really be the back bone of the village's powers and should unite to ge rid of the juubi and tailed beasts once and for all.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    first thing I don't see how kabuto is a genius, he screwed the world up because he thinks he thinks can do what he wants. Kabuto didn't even know what the major weakness of edo tensei even is. Cant wait to see his face now when tobi is allowed to kill kabuto now. maybe madara should do it, irony is good do for kabuto.

    Anyway, it would be nice to see the villain of the stort shift from shinobi and go to the juubi. That way the common enemy can show the shinobi world that this power of the beasts cant really be the back bone of the village's powers and should unite to ge rid of the juubi and tailed beasts once and for all.
    As far as genius is concerned, you are certainly within reason to doubt kabuto being one. He clearly isn't a genius in the sense the manga most often uses ala minato, neji, lee, itachi, shikimaru and so forth. Genius has come to mean something broader in spirit with how the manga chooses which characters are indeed... genius.

    What we can say about kabuto that allows him special status equal to many of the geniuses is that he is an intellectual with just enough humility to be dangerous.

    I am not sure how you mean the world became screwed up, perhaps touching upon the impure world to mingle with the pure world? Assisting tobi with formidable military power through the bound souls of resurrected shinobi? By introducing a vile and indestructible form of madara which places all of existence in peril?

    I also wouldn't be too hasty to downplay his use of edo tensei or fault him to the point of a blunderer. Can you tell me one shinobi besides itachi who "knows the weakness of edo tensei?" Also, kabuto's motives have yet to be satisfactorily revealed and on top of that, we still have unresolved yet persistent likelihoods of kabuto hiding another ace or two up his sleeve with this whole edo madara ordeal.

    Since mentioning tobi, that identity has pretty much dissolved in the wake of the other major characters recognizing his obito aspect. Obito probably will not be dealing kabuto death blows anytime soon and certainly not through madara's permission. I doubt madara would even feel inclined to kill him if presented the chance. Madara is beginning to see that obito's loyalty is in question and his planned revival had even become uncertain. I could see madara at least in one occurrence giving kabuto respect, maybe acknowledging his power but at the very least, a refrain of hostility.

    Kabuto must work that much harder to become a sage of the 6 paths and he has so far connected most of the minor and major bloodlines into one body (his own) and has uncovered and achieved secrets of sage mode by higher degree of struggle than naruto.

    Kabuto has the right amount of humility to ensure his villainy or intrigues of motivation always stays dangerous and respected.

    Madara has the right amount of arrogance to ensure his "above everyone else" level of power will always have obscuration preceding a fatal blind spot.
    -

    Kabuto will always learn a lesson, madara will likely never understand true power while he gazes through the tunnel vision of his bloodsoaked sharingan.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  6. #6
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    As far as genius is concerned, you are certainly within reason to doubt kabuto being one. He clearly isn't a genius in the sense the manga most often uses ala minato, neji, lee, itachi, shikimaru and so forth. Genius has come to mean something broader in spirit with how the manga chooses which characters are indeed... genius.

    What we can say about kabuto that allows him special status equal to many of the geniuses is that he is an intellectual with just enough humility to be dangerous.

    I am not sure how you mean the world became screwed up, perhaps touching upon the impure world to mingle with the pure world? Assisting tobi with formidable military power through the bound souls of resurrected shinobi? By introducing a vile and indestructible form of madara which places all of existence in peril?

    I also wouldn't be too hasty to downplay his use of edo tensei or fault him to the point of a blunderer. Can you tell me one shinobi besides itachi who "knows the weakness of edo tensei?" Also, kabuto's motives have yet to be satisfactorily revealed and on top of that, we still have unresolved yet persistent likelihoods of kabuto hiding another ace or two up his sleeve with this whole edo madara ordeal.

    Since mentioning tobi, that identity has pretty much dissolved in the wake of the other major characters recognizing his obito aspect. Obito probably will not be dealing kabuto death blows anytime soon and certainly not through madara's permission. I doubt madara would even feel inclined to kill him if presented the chance. Madara is beginning to see that obito's loyalty is in question and his planned revival had even become uncertain. I could see madara at least in one occurrence giving kabuto respect, maybe acknowledging his power but at the very least, a refrain of hostility.

    Kabuto must work that much harder to become a sage of the 6 paths and he has so far connected most of the minor and major bloodlines into one body (his own) and has uncovered and achieved secrets of sage mode by higher degree of struggle than naruto.

    Kabuto has the right amount of humility to ensure his villainy or intrigues of motivation always stays dangerous and respected.

    Madara has the right amount of arrogance to ensure his "above everyone else" level of power will always have obscuration preceding a fatal blind spot.
    -

    Kabuto will always learn a lesson, madara will likely never understand true power while he gazes through the tunnel vision of his bloodsoaked sharingan.
    kabuto revived madara, now hes free with unlimited chakra.

    Kabuto is a noob. That's what I meant by screw up.

    Also he just stole orocihmaru's work and powers, ppl who steal aren't genius.

    The pioneers that create something new are true geniues,

    like minato- rasengan
    naruto - wind rasengan
    so6p- modern ninjutsu

    and etc...

  7. #7
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    Unless I've missed it, I don't see what Madara not being able to gather Natural Energy has to do with anything, let alone be a mistake of his. And considering that the Juubi is willingly supplying Madara and Tobi with chakra right now (note that they didn't have to force him to do that), I find it hard to believe that the Juubi will suddenly, and without warning, turn on them just before they realize their ambitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    Oh, and as for Sasuke, his Kirin technique was a foreshadowing element of himself and natural energy. Natural energy need not be simply understood as sage chakra but as the raw force in every rock, tree, and river. A gathering storm cloud that offers a lighting strike as Sasuke needs it is clear demonstration that he is capable of a relationship with those forces and the reader can go all day scaling the significance of sasuke 's kirin to possibilities of steering the juubi using the same principles.
    No, that was a clear demonstration of how to use your hand like a lightning rod. It's no different from a water element user using a nearby water source to execute a water technique. Has nothing to do with Natural Energy the way Naruto uses it.

  8. #8
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afro Thunda View Post
    Unless I've missed it, I don't see what Madara not being able to gather Natural Energy has to do with anything, let alone be a mistake of his. And considering that the Juubi is willingly supplying Madara and Tobi with chakra right now (note that they didn't have to force him to do that), I find it hard to believe that the Juubi will suddenly, and without warning, turn on them just before they realize their ambitions.

    No, that was a clear demonstration of how to use your hand like a lightning rod. It's no different from a water element user using a nearby water source to execute a water technique. Has nothing to do with Natural Energy the way Naruto uses it.
    In my thinking, not being able to gather natural energy is a possible blunder because it is missing an element that served the so6p's level of power. The juubi, identified as a being of enormous levels of natural energy, might be accessed or have control wrestled through natural energy abilities which only naruto, kabuto, and now likely the kyubi, can use. Simply put, natural energy is the main material of the juubi, any ability to use or control natural energy seems like an exclusive way in which the juubi can be engaged. I really don't think that logic, which merely points out possibilities, can be so easily discarded.

    Obito and madara have the mazou branch installed ontop of the juubi as a likely controller device (which they are directly connected to from their own necks. If not a controlling device and merely a siphon.. well you got me there, im trying to question the role rinnegan is playing right now with the current 10 tails.

    As for kirin, i think you misunderstand me. I know that it was a lightning rod as you say and was not at all the gathering of sage chakra but regardless, the sympathetic attitude to the energy in "rocks and trees", the energy in earth and what constitutes the 10 tails is indication of a greater respect or relationship to come between sasuke and natural energy. Natural energy and sage chakra are not the same thing. Until otherwise revealed, sasuke has a leg up on madara when respecting the power of nature synergistically whereas madara wants it to simply obey.
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    So, we are sitting on two huge mistakes in Madara's judgement that can come into play at anytime and change the game.

    1) Madara does not have a way of gathering or using natural energy on his own. At best he must do it on some level through the juubi itself.

    2) He defines and recognizes the tailed beasts as something less than a person and merely a coalescence of chakra that must obey.

    I agree with these points for the most part. I mentioned something similar before, I think Madara underestimates the Juubi and fails to understand its nature. Madara has spend his entire life trying to recreate the Sage of Six Path's bloodline but I think he fails to understand how the Sage was actually able to truly control the Juubi. As you have said, Madara has shown no apparent understanding of Natural energy of the sage arts. We have already been told that the Juubi's own energy is like that of nature. I think it is evident that the Original Sage was a master of Sage arts and could control natural energy, that power is likely what allowed him to sync with the Juubi so well and not be overpowered by it. I think that if Madara attempts to become the Juubi's Jinnchuuriki he will not be able to control it because, as you have mentioned, he fails to understand its true nature and he views it merely as a source of power rather than a being of intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    kabuto revived madara, now hes free with unlimited chakra.

    Kabuto is a noob. That's what I meant by screw up.

    Also he just stole orocihmaru's work and powers, ppl who steal aren't genius.
    According to that belief that would mean that Madara and Orochimaru aren't genius' either. Just because they stole a lot of their abilities it doesn't mean they aren't geniuses.

    Clearly Kabuto screwed up by thinking he could control Madara but other Geniuses made similar errors. Orochimaru was a genius but he screwed up by thinking he could capture Itachi and he screwed up by thinking he could destroy Konoha. Shikamaru was a genius but he almost got his whole team killed on his first mission. Minato was a genius but he died all the same trying to stop the Kyuubi. Even geniuses aren't perfect.

    Kabuto showed immense intelligence and skill even without the bloodlines he stole. He was on par with Kakashi (who is also considered a genius) even before he took any bloodlines.

    Kabuto is not a noob he just looks that way now because he went up against Itachi and as is the case with everyone Itachi fights he was made to look like an armature. Frankly, everyone who fights Itachi comes out looking unimpressive because Itachi makes short work of everyone. Orochimaru, Deidara, Nagato, Killerbee, etc. they all seemed like they were near the top of the food chain but Itachi schooled all of them. Against pretty much any other character Kabuto's Snake Sage mode, multiple bloodlines, medical techniques and Edo Tensei would have seemed godly. Its not really fair to belittle Kabuto just because he got schooled by Itachi, everyone gets schooled by Itachi, there hasn't been a singly case where Itachi really seemed to be challenged. Apparently Itachi is just too good for his own good, that's why he had to die of an illness Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner and realized that he just couldn't let Itachi live or Naruto and Sasuke would both be irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    The pioneers that create something new are true geniues,

    like minato- rasengan
    naruto - wind rasengan
    so6p- modern ninjutsu

    and etc...
    Kabuto created a bunch of medical techniques, that is why Orochimaru valued him so much. Kabuto also improved upon almost all of the abilities he took from other people, which isn't all that different from what Naruto did with the Rasenshuriken. Kabuto was also able to infuse all of the bloodlines into his own body, which is something that Orochimaru wasn't able to accomplish. Kabuto pioneered a lot of things, but like most great innovators he stood on the shoulders of giants. None of the characters in this series started with nothing and achieved the highest level, aside from maybe the Sage of Six Path's. Naruto's skills would be shit without the Jiraiya, Minato, Kakashi and the Kyuubi. Even Minato, had great mentors that taught him some of his most important skills.

  10. #10
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by knife eater View Post
    Important edit:

    I know what shikikau's plan is! He asked for details of the previous fights. The detail that he is going to basing his plan on is when kakashi noticed the bondage breaking from the 8 tails as more mokuton had to be directed to the juubi as it began to emerge.

    The plan will involve affecting the mokuton in use and most likely the mazou! The first hokage is a well known figure in konaha, I'm sure there is secret knowledge dealing with his wood tech pros and cons. Naruto can possibly reverse flourish the mokuton or sakura will finally do something useful and go on mission with naruto to poison the mazou and mokuton. Shikikaku had Epiphany when he mentioned "flies", bugs eat and rot wood so something along that principle will be his plan, maybe even shino's clan but who knows how literally bugs will be involved. Most importantly, the shiki clan, nara, owns the konaha forest where medicine is produced. There will naturally be an understanding of wood and trees and plants, medical and poison. Im very positive the plan is involving subverting the mokuton!
    If my theory from 613 chapter discussion is correct and if the juubi has a relationship with natural energy (giving and taking) then natural energy could be a HUGE gaping back door for any sage mode user to exploit! It can be used to introduce any number of things to cause disruption to madara and obito's control over 10 tails, suffocating the mokuton for instance. Madara may have sharingan, rinnegan, and mokuton but appears to be completely blind to the sage arts and would have little way of noticing sage techniques in play until it's too late. This is why i said it was a blunder, sage arts are now a contending force (at least i think so) in exploitation of the juubi's reigns and madara's abilities, powerful as they are, are probably too conventional to prevent many sage arts.

    The energy of rocks and trees (koff mokuton koff) flowing in and out of the juub, infused with a corrosive, poisonous or subversive sage art could theoretically disrupt the mokuton, the lotus mazou affixed to the mokuton and juubi, madara or obito, or any and all! This is where rinnegan can be said to be "short sighted".
    _____
    Obito is Tobirama's great grandson. The proof is in the pudding.

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