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Thread: The God Debate

  1. #111
    i heil Binktopia!. *bows* vidzey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuroihikari View Post
    What does that have to do with It's existence?
    if i told everybody that i discovered a certain fruit which i will name god, wouldn't it be fair if i also include it's color, which is reddish green, weighs 999.0987654321 tons, smells like my armpit after having hardcore sex, and is 123.456789 in cubic diameter in order to prove its existence? if somebody asks me what is its color, weight, smell, size, and other features and i can't provide it, would you believe me?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuroihikari View Post
    I explained it pretty clearly. The Universe can't create itself. All scientific laws (Laws of entropy, conservation of mass and energy, etc.) are broken if that were true. So we either redefine our concept of the Universe and the Universe becomes Creator (God), or we define something external to it (i.e. God).

    Either way it's only a choice of definition. What makes one right over the other? That's right, because one has "God" in it, making it all wrong.
    imo, we are still far away from giving an exact and specific conclusion that the universe can't really create itself (as you've said). but as of the moment, we can't really say that a god created it, either. so unless a scientific evidence was to be released by the scientific community that someone/something actually created it, then i think it's just fair to believe otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by kuroihikari View Post
    Apparently you're confused about the discussion I was presenting about the existence of a non-religious God.

    Besides, the Big-Bang Theory brings forth the idea of a SuperForce which comprises all fundamental forces (weak and strong molecular forces, Gravity and Electro magnetic forces) which were somehow mixed up, among other unexplained masses of matter. What is this thing that caused this SuperForce to split up? Where did the matter comprising it Proto-Universe come from? Do either of these things still exist today? How can it affect Universe? If it can create something out of nothing, can it do it again?

    A force that is that powerful to create such a universe is God. And I don't mean in a religious way.
    at first, yes, i am really confused about how you're presenting your god. but not anymore. i used to think like that, too.

    it was only when i read about the invisible pink unicorn (may her hooves never be shod) that i changed my belief. if you replaced god with her, you'll notice that it's kinda silly.

    anyways, thanks!


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    thank god i'm an atheist!

  2. #112
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidzey View Post
    if i told everybody that i discovered a certain fruit which i will name god, wouldn't it be fair if i also include it's color, which is reddish green, weighs 999.0987654321 tons, smells like my armpit after having hardcore sex, and is 123.456789 in cubic diameter in order to prove its existence? if somebody asks me what is its color, weight, smell, size, and other features and i can't provide it, would you believe me?
    If you have evidence of what it does and no other thing does that, then your definition is already precise.

    Quote Originally Posted by vidzey View Post
    imo, we are still far away from giving an exact and specific conclusion that the universe can't really create itself (as you've said). but as of the moment, we can't really say that a god created it, either. so unless a scientific evidence was to be released by the scientific community that someone/something actually created it, then i think it's just fair to believe otherwise.
    My argument is not that "God created the Universe." It's that "Whatever created the Universe must be God". And there definitely was a Creation, and evidence for it.

    EDIT: Thank you Archiel, for removing your post. I understand how you feel.

  3. #113
    Philopolemicist Itsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archiel View Post
    Or we can just like....not use religion at all...just a thought, you claim that religion can be peaceful etc etc etc, but it inevitably leads down the same path, it always has.

    What are we defining god as right now, a set of fundamental principles that govern the universe? I don't really see how worshipping the laws of gravity does anyone any good...

    Alright, too be honest my post isn't serious, none of you are actually gonna listen to me given that your obviously hiding behind your religious tolerance barriers, you deists can have fun finding god wherever you like...
    I'm not saying that I believe in God, I'm an atheist.

    I just said that we're allowed to believe in what ever we want - I'm just trying to enter this debate a bit subtle, that's all. :>
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  4. #114
    i heil Binktopia!. *bows* vidzey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuroihikari View Post
    If you have evidence of what it does and no other thing does that, then your definition is already precise.
    then all i said is relevant on proving that that thing exists! and that saying something that exists without one/all of the said characteristics would be quite absurd, right? i mean, aside from your god, can you tell me what other thing that exists without something that proves it's existence?

    Quote Originally Posted by kuroihikari View Post
    My argument is not that "God created the Universe." It's that "Whatever created the Universe must be God".
    this is confusing, at some point. if an ant created the universe for all we know, then ant = god? is that what you mean?


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  5. #115
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidzey View Post
    then all i said is relevant on proving that that thing exists! and that saying something that exists without one/all of the said characteristics would be quite absurd, right? i mean, aside from your god, can you tell me what other thing that exists without something that proves it's existence?
    The Creation (not the Biblical one) was already proven as happened by the Big Bang Theory. There was already Something that facilitated the Creation, and thus the existence of this Creator is already proven.

    Quote Originally Posted by vidzey View Post
    this is confusing, at some point. if an ant created the universe for all we know, then ant = god? is that what you mean?
    Yes. But almighty science says an ant couldn't have created the Universe, so I'm pretty sure that isn't the case.

  6. #116
    Couldn't be fucked Archiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsu View Post
    I'm not saying that I believe in God, I'm an atheist.

    I just said that we're allowed to believe in what ever we want - I'm just trying to enter this debate a bit subtle, that's all. :>
    I wouldn't entitle an idiot to his beliefs, because frankly, hes an idiot.

    I havent read much of this thread since i last posted, but what is the argument here between these two^


    Kuro, it seems to me like you're advocating the existence of a supernatural agent, whatever it is, in playing a hand in the creation of the universe

    Spoiler!


    Why don't more people read these mangas?

  7. #117
    Philopolemicist Itsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidzey View Post
    then all i said is relevant on proving that that thing exists! and that saying something that exists without one/all of the said characteristics would be quite absurd, right? i mean, aside from your god, can you tell me what other thing that exists without something that proves it's existence?



    this is confusing, at some point. if an ant created the universe for all we know, then ant = god? is that what you mean?
    Didn't he just say that he does not claim that God exist, just that whatever created the universe is god?

    Basically that means if a piece of rock put the Big Bang in motion, then that rock is God.
    (Didn't get your last line there, sorry. But you see my point as well.)

    (To the religion is bad thing) Buddhism is a religion, does Buddhism form violence? I think not
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  8. #118
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archiel View Post
    Kuro, it seems to me like you're advocating the existence of a supernatural agent, whatever it is, in playing a hand in the creation of the universe
    Yeah, a supernatural agent, by whatever definition of "natural" we have right now.

    I am actually inclined into string theory, the idea of a multi-dimensional space creating itself fascinates me, but at the same time I don't think it renders any of my personal beliefs (not my religion in its entirety) incorrect.

  9. #119
    Couldn't be fucked Archiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsu View Post
    Didn't he just say that he does not claim that God exist, just that whatever created the universe is god?

    Basically that means if a piece of rock put the Big Bang in motion, then that rock is God.

    To the religion is bad thing) Buddhism is a religion, does Buddhism form violence? I think not
    So he's basically a deist then...but that doesn't make sense anyways, if a rock put the big bang in motion, that is saying that the universe was created exactly as i would have expected it to come out, as a natural protest, if you assign it the name god then you instantly attach to it purpose and intent...so its ridiculous


    Oh and don't argue against me, my posts are non-serious and don't even pay attention to them, you're debating vidzey...not me



    and yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Buddhism to rational people is a philosophy, not a damn religion, there isnt any god, or anything that should be prayed to etc etc (no matter what lots of people in Asia do for some strange strange reason), Buddhism is all about spirituality, which and listen very very very very very very carefully, can be fully and easily divorced from the very notion of religion...you get me

    Spoiler!


    Why don't more people read these mangas?

  10. #120
    Senior Member kuroihikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archiel View Post
    So he's basically a deist then...but that doesn't make sense anyways, if a rock put the big bang in motion, that is saying that the universe was created exactly as i would have expected it to come out, as a natural protest, if you assign it the name god then you instantly attach to it purpose and intent...so its ridiculous
    I wouldn't call it ridiculous . Just to play Devil's Advocate on myself, I'd call it convenient. I can never be wrong on the creation part, and I still call bollocks on parts of my religion I think are illogical, and keep to heart the philosophical part that makes sense.

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