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  1. #6211
    Senior Member Kenny Bones's Avatar
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    Just re-read chapter 510 where Tobi fights Konan and uses Izanagi. He says "A techneque that can only be used by someone possessing both the powers of the Uchiha and the Senju".

    But later when Itachi fights Kabuto and uses Izanami, he explain that Izanami was a jutsu created to counter the use of Izanagi. Since it was spammed so much by the Uchiha. But how the hell could they "spam" Izanagi? Tobi says you need both Senju and Uchiha powers, but yet Uchiha still used it with only the sharingan. And one person could only use it twice, and be blind as a result. So how could it possibly have been abused? Didn't they think that loosing even one eye would be a bad thing?
    Last edited by Kenny Bones; 05-21-2013 at 11:15 PM.

  2. #6212
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Bones View Post
    Just re-read chapter 510 where Tobi fights Konan and uses Izanagi. He says "A techneque that can only be used by someone possessing both the powers of the Uchiha and the Senju".

    But later when Itachi fights Kabuto and uses Izanami, he explain that Izanami was a jutsu created to counter the use of Izanagi. Since it was spammed so much by the Uchiha. But how the hell could they "spam" Izanagi? Tobi says you need both Senju and Uchiha powers, but yet Uchiha still used it with only the sharingan. And one person could only use it twice, and be blind as a result. So how could it possibly have been abused? Didn't they think that loosing even one eye would be a bad thing?
    When I read the Viz translation regarding Izanagi overuse, I think it suggested that the problematic part was that a large number of people using Izanagi *at once* could result in chaos over which "rewriting" of the scenario was most effective... honestly I think that the metaphor Kishi was going for is a bit of a stretch even then, so you're right... as if losing an eye isn't a hard enough price, they have to go into a mental "time-out" where the only way to escape is to rethink your life.

  3. #6213
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Bones View Post
    Just re-read chapter 510 where Tobi fights Konan and uses Izanagi. He says "A techneque that can only be used by someone possessing both the powers of the Uchiha and the Senju".

    But later when Itachi fights Kabuto and uses Izanami, he explain that Izanami was a jutsu created to counter the use of Izanagi. Since it was spammed so much by the Uchiha. But how the hell could they "spam" Izanagi? Tobi says you need both Senju and Uchiha powers, but yet Uchiha still used it with only the sharingan. And one person could only use it twice, and be blind as a result. So how could it possibly have been abused? Didn't they think that loosing even one eye would be a bad thing?
    I think that the ancestry Uchiha might have been able to use Izanagi, since their blood was likely not as diluted as it is now. Even if the Yin and Yang was mostly split between the brothers, they were still sons of the same parent (So6p) and even if not as potent as their main traits, the other one was certainly not a small one, especially comparing it to the current day and age ninja. Basically both of the brothers had above average Yin and Yang energy, but it's just that one of their traits each, was simply even more beyond what it considered above average (it can be clearly seen in the fact that the older Brother had something between Rinnegan and EMS, which means that even if not as strong as his brother, or someone like Hashirama, his physical/life energies were still strong (his spiritual/mind energies were simply beyond strong).

    It's also possible that since their blood wasn't as diluted as it is now, their eyes might have also been able to withstand using Izanagi more than once.

    Not to mention that the Uchiha at the time of Madara's rule were no longer spaming Izanagi (otherwise Madara would have long ago sacrificed an eye of an random Uchia in order to gain an edge against Hashirama). It's quite possible that the reason the Uchiha finally lost, even though they battled against Senju(or rather descendants of the younger brother) for decades or even hundreds of years before Madara and Hashiram were born, is perhaps because they no longer could use that cheat power on their own.



  4. #6214
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    I am not certain, but I think the Senju blood only pertains to the SO6P version of Izanagi. If I am right, the Manga's translation is a little shaky, or some nuance was lost in translation. You will note that Tobi almost immediately after goes into the original use of Izanagi by SO6P to transform imagination into reality.

    I think that any Uchiha can perform the Izanagi done by Tobi and Danzo at the cost of an eye, but what requires the bloodlines is the SO6P Izanagi.

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  5. #6215
    Senior Member Kenny Bones's Avatar
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    So, in conclusion, Tobi might have exaggerated his own abilities and the requirements of izanagi to Konan then huh? But again, we've never actually seen an Uchiha use Izanagi without Senju cells either. Except for the six paths. Only we've seen is Itachi using Izanami. And one would think they have the same requirements.

  6. #6216
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    The translation was shaky and seemingly contradicting, but the Iznagi that Tobi and Danzou used is different from the one that the ancestry Uchiha used, at least according to what Tobi and Itachi said separately. The one used by Tobi and Danzou is superior, since it is closer to the All Creation Technique of So6p, since they can turn their death into illusion and live into reality. While the Izanagi that ancestry Uchiha used (IIRC) according to Itachi allowed to bend reality and it's probability into a favorable conclusion. Rather than making illusion into reality (which means whatever they imagined would happen), they were able to chose a favorable fate from the existing possibilities.

    In short, the Tobi/Danzou Izanagi, is closer to that So6p's technique (but it still isn't there), it allows for the user to create possibilities. While the one used by ancestry Uchiha, is the one that allows you to chose one from the existing possibilities. This means that if there was no possibility of surviving then the ancestry Uchiha Izanagi would not save you, while the one used by Tobi/Danzou would (this means that if it wasn't for his enhanced Izanagi, Obito would have died from Konan's hands, or at least he would have been pulverized by 1000 of explosions, I doubt that he would survive that ).



  7. #6217
    Senior Member knife eater's Avatar
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    Only those possessing the powers of both senju and uchiha is correct. after the recent flashbacks, it's established that uchiha and senju conflict had already lasted generations, decades, or even centuries prior to the founding of konaha. Bodies were already of the habit of hiding and disposing of to hide secrets. It's safe to assume that stealing powers between the two clans was probably more rampant than after Madara's time throughout oro and danzo. After all, madara had the gumption to steal hashirama's power. He must have known enough high level secrets to understand the importance of Hashirama's power in regards to his own. How else would he know how or have the tools to teach obito the uchiha kenjutsu and other high level techniques. Only oro, danzo, and itachi were known to have understood or used the izanagi/izanami techniques. oro probably learned of their existence through his studies of lore that nobody else was inerested in (yes i know he couldnt cast the techniques, duh, but he most likely learned of them with danzo or supplied danzo the knowledge). same is obvious for itachi. danzo could have been a conduit between oro and itachi or learned of his own accord.

    After the founding of konaha, i don't see uchiha clan in the position to learn, pass down, or spam izanagi or izanami given the relationship and its changes with the senju and the village.

    prior to konaha...with rampant power stealing and bloody wars with no respect for fallen foes, im sure many high level tech was more commonplace so long as there were enough strong shinobi to cast them. when you grow up in unceasing war, you and your comrades will more than likely develop to be strong shinobi because that is the demand survival will put on you.

    everything to me in the translation holds up.

    @paulbee, in my other post, i meant to say that kabuto knew madara did not die at the vote, not that he was allive past the time of teen tobi or thereabouts. sorry for the miscommunication.
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  8. #6218
    Senior Member Yoru's Avatar
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    Q: where did obito take the sage's staff from after absorbing the juubi? Do you have any ideas? My friend stopped watching naruto because the recent developement makes very little sense to him, and I want to present him with explanations...

  9. #6219
    Senior Member Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoru View Post
    Q: where did obito take the sage's staff from after absorbing the juubi? Do you have any ideas? My friend stopped watching naruto because the recent developement makes very little sense to him, and I want to present him with explanations...
    The black staff is actually part of Obito's black matter liquid jutsu, it's just shaped differently (you can notice that like his other black ball manipulations, it goes through his hand). It's not necessarily the same as So6p's staff, it might be that he used his jutsu to make a staff similar to the one that So6p had, to make himself more akin to him.



  10. #6220
    Yesss... Rlinfamous's Avatar
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    I believe Minato may also be limited in his use of the Yin chakra.

    First of all, we know Edo Tensei ninjas cannot become a Jinchuuriki, thanks to Madara's inability to do so with the Juubi. While we have seen Edo Jinchuuriki through Obito's Paths, the Bijuu chakra was bound to the black rods, not to the Edo Tensei. It's possible these rods are what circumvented the need for a living host body for Bijuu transformation to occur, including partial transformation such as chakra arms.

    Secondly, I believe the Yin half is less the 'real' Kurama than the Yang, sort of like how when Naruto divides his chakra equally between clones there is still only one real body with a soul. The Yin probably has some of Kurama's Will, but is not equally complete on his own.

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