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  1. #4911
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    When Yondaime Sealed the Fox into Naruto, he rigged it so that the Foxes Chakra continually leaked into Naruto.

    Question: After Naruto Re-sealed the Fox, was the Seal 100%, is there still any chakra leakage in Naruto's Favour?

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  2. #4912
    六代目火影仙人 Rokudaime Sennin ™'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliteKage View Post
    Question:

    What is positive and negative chakra? Its a rather new concept that Kishi literally brought out of nowhere.......
    See that's what happens when you rely on only one translation/scanlation. This is what you should do, read mangastream, then sleepyfans, and if you haven't already, go back and read the spoiler translations.

    I seriously didn't like the way HBK translated much of this latest chapter. Positive/Negative chakra is just another name for Yang/yin chakra.

    Yang = physical = light = positive = life

    Yin = spiritual = Dark = negative = death

    Capish?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    When Yondaime Sealed the Fox into Naruto, he rigged it so that the Foxes Chakra continually leaked into Naruto.

    Question: After Naruto Re-sealed the Fox, was the Seal 100%, is there still any chakra leakage in Naruto's Favour?
    I would say no, no more chakra leakage until Naruto taps into the kyubi chakra he stores insde the 4 Torii temples, himself. He separated it from the kyubi and locked it up tight, only when he goes RSM mode, can he access it.
    A bridge towards peace; the will of fire still endures!


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  3. #4913
    Elder Brother EliteKage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokudaime Sennin ™ View Post
    See that's what happens when you rely on only one translation/scanlation. This is what you should do, read mangastream, then sleepyfans, and if you haven't already, go back and read the spoiler translations.

    I seriously didn't like the way HBK translated much of this latest chapter. Positive/Negative chakra is just another name for Yang/yin chakra.

    Yang = physical = light = positive = life

    Yin = spiritual = Dark = negative = death

    Capish?



    I would say no, no more chakra leakage until Naruto taps into the kyubi chakra he stores insde the 4 Torii temples, himself. He separated it from the kyubi and locked it up tight, only when he goes RSM mode, can he access it.
    That still doesnt make sense. First of all, kirabi said the positive was the dark one and the negative one was the light one....unless thats another translation error.

    Also, heres my understanding of Yin-Yang let me know if it matches with yours.

    Chakra=Physical +Spiritual energy
    Yang Chakra=Dominantly Physical with little Spiritual
    Yin Chakra=Dominantly Spiritual with little Physical

    Naruto has the Kyuubis Yang Chakra(dominantly physical w/ little spiritual), thus im guessing the the positive (black) is the physical energy and the negative(white) must be the spiritual energy. Since Yang is dominantly physical, that must be why he has to keep it in that 8:2 ratio.

  4. #4914
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliteKage View Post
    That still doesnt make sense. First of all, kirabi said the positive was the dark one and the negative one was the light one....unless thats another translation error.

    Also, heres my understanding of Yin-Yang let me know if it matches with yours.

    Chakra=Physical +Spiritual energy
    Yang Chakra=Dominantly Physical with little Spiritual
    Yin Chakra=Dominantly Spiritual with little Physical

    Naruto has the Kyuubis Yang Chakra(dominantly physical w/ little spiritual), thus im guessing the the positive (black) is the physical energy and the negative(white) must be the spiritual energy. Since Yang is dominantly physical, that must be why he has to keep it in that 8:2 ratio.
    Well, if anything, it's about time for the concept of Yin/Yang (Light/Dark or what have you) chakra to be explained in full. Naruto has no clue about what that really means, so Killer Bee will explain it to him. It may not have anything to do with Physical or Spiritual energy at all. In any case, I hope Kishi does explain it soon so I can insert myself back into these "Rikudo this and that" debates again lol.

  5. #4915
    六代目火影仙人 Rokudaime Sennin ™'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliteKage View Post
    That still doesnt make sense. First of all, kirabi said the positive was the dark one and the negative one was the light one....unless thats another translation error.

    Also, heres my understanding of Yin-Yang let me know if it matches with yours.

    Chakra=Physical +Spiritual energy
    Yang Chakra=Dominantly Physical with little Spiritual
    Yin Chakra=Dominantly Spiritual with little Physical

    Naruto has the Kyuubis Yang Chakra(dominantly physical w/ little spiritual), thus im guessing the the positive (black) is the physical energy and the negative(white) must be the spiritual energy. Since Yang is dominantly physical, that must be why he has to keep it in that 8:2 ratio.
    Um, just f**king great. MangaStream scanlation is the wrong one.

    Takl Spoiler Translation

    Bee's shoulders tremble in a flutter(the 4th Hokage...! what a coincidence...or is it a twist of fate! A marvel♪)
    Bee: The rasengan! It's just like the way as b-jyu ball is. the kinship (kyo tu♪) ! the jutsu designed after the tech of b-ju! that was rasengan!! As if it was to commit b-jyu dama to you!! the good luck(kyo un♪)
    although when b-ju-alized it's easy, in a human form the chakra transformation is too tough to make to start with. still...the method that puts a spin on it to increase the stability!
    Naruto: but somewhat..it doesn't go smoothly as a regular rasengan.
    Bee: b ju chakra is made of + chakra and – chakra. The proportion! you compress the chakra in the white and back ratio of 8:2 and you get a ball! Go for it!!
    Naruto:aye!!
    Shounensuki Spoiler Translation

    Naruto: "But I didn't even succeed in doing a Rasengan properly..."
    B: "Bijū chakra is a combination of plus chakra and minus chakra... a balance! When you compress it, the balance between white and black should be 8:2, before turning it inro a sphere! Try it!"
    Naruto: "Alright!"
    As you can see they both said plus and minus chakra, the plus comes first, and then correlated the white and black with the plus and minus in the same order.

    the white as in light chakra = positive and the black as in dark chakra = negative.

    The sleepyfans translation should be coming out soon, I'll post it up when it does.

    Let's go over it again. Here's a pic for reference.



    1. Chakra = Physical Energies + Spiritual Energies Correct

    Yang = Physical and Yin = Spiritual energies so basically Chakra = Yin + yang is another way of saying it

    Yang = physical, light, LIFE, positive, wouldn't you consider life to be positive?
    Yin = spiritual, dark, DEATH, negative, wouldn't you consider death to be negative?

    2. Yang Chakra = Dominantly physical with little spiritual Again absolutely correct
    Yang Chakra is basically chakra where the yang energies are the majority, anywhere from 51-100%, as in the ratio of physical/spiritual or yang/yin energies tilts towards the yang side. That would be considered yang chakra and is used for jutsus which are mostly of the physical nature, as in Amaterasu, (yes amaterasu, I still have to reply to your earlier post), mokuton, body manipulations such as immimaro's bone and chouji's body part expansion. These are all jutsus that rely on yang heavy chakra, each would have different proportions tho depending on the jutsu.

    3. Yin Chakra = Dominantly spiritual with little physical. Yes, Correct

    Yin chakra is basically chakra where the yin energies are the majority. The ratio is tilting more towards the yin side. This would be all genjutsu, with Tsukuyomi being the most spiritual/yin heavy, I would surmise Tsukuyomi to be about 99% yin and 1% yang, as in it still affects the physical senses but it's mostly an illusion affecting the mind. Another example would be the shikamaru's kagemane jutsus which would use mostly yin chakra as in chakra with a greater proportion of yin energies.

    So yin release would be using yin heavy chakra to perform a jutsu and yang release would be yang heavy chakra to perform a jutsu.

    Tsukuyomi, Kagemane = Inton Release (yin release)
    Amaterasu, Mokuton = Yohton Release (yang release)
    Izanagi, Susanoo = Onmyoton Release (yin/yang release)

    And Onmyoton jutsus such as Izanagi, Izanami, Susanoo, Kagebunshins would require 50-50 ratio, or equal balance between the two types of energies composing the chakra.

    But remember the different jutsus of yin and yang releases require different proportions of yin to yang.

    So with Naruto, yes he has kyubi's yang chakra, the yin got sealed inside the deathgod. The positive is the white/light physical/yang energy and the negative is the black/Dark spiritual/yin energy. And ditto on the last part, since yang is physical, that's the reason why the chakra sphere has to be kept to a 8:2 ratio. 4 times the yang energy to the spiritual energy, basically a 4 to 1 ratio.

    Now here's where's things get interesting. Yang or physical energy represents creation and yin or spiritual energy represents destruction. As in the senjus/uzumakis are the life givers in case of Tsunade, and life creators in case of hashirama's mokuton. Chakra chains are also a yang release. The uchihas are the destroyer, they like to destroy stuff, with their fire. Senju/uzumakis are the water to the uchihas fire. As in both Hashirama/Tobirama had water, hashirama used the water + earth to create his mokuton. And all uchihas main affinity is to fire. The senjus are the forest, Danzou was the roots, uzumakis (whirlpool) are the water that nourishes that forest, and the leaves that blow in the wind. The uchihas are the fire that burns down that forest, bringing death to life, destruction to creation. And that's where Izanami will come into play later on, but that's for later anyways.

    Now since yang is the chakra used for creation, one would wonder why it's used in greater quantity in a bijuudama instead of more yin which is the chakra used for destruction. Well that has to do with creating the sphere to begin with, and it's the compression which causes the destruction after it's release, due to it's concentration. That's the reason why Naruto's bijuurasengan imploded on him, cause he didn't have enough yang chakra in order to keep it's shape. Shape manipulation requires more yang to yin. In the case of rasengan, the ratio is less as instead of 4 to 1 for bijuudama, because the rasengan adds a rotation to it to keep it stabilized. Without such rotation, it's impossible to keep that chakra compressed unless you provide 4 times the amount of yang chakra as is the case with bijuudama.

    Make sense?

    yang also is equated to the sun (that's why Amaterasu is physical/yang release, she was a sun goddess)
    yin is equated to the moon (that's why moon is shown during Tsukuyomi/Mugen Tsukuyomi)

    Now you may ask then how come the Uchihas have access to a yang release jutsu representing the sun when it should've gone to the senjus/uzumakis. Well that has to do with the fact that the flames of Amaterasu have already been created, they are summoned to their destination from the pits of hell where they reside, and they have been turned black from their original yellow, sent to hell from their pedestal in the heavens where the sun resides. This has to do with the Elder brother's story, the choice that he made.

    You see, the Amaterasu or the sun is actually a life giver, as in the sun nourishes the plants/trees, the forest. That's what Rikudou's Amaterasu was intended for, to shine light upon the world. His elder son corrupted the flames, turning them black with his darkness, now they're used for burning down/destroying that same forest, as in Sasuke's case of planning to use them upon the leaf, or Madara's case of using them upon Hashirama's mokuton.

    Now, Itachi is a very unique case, quite possibly the only uchiha with water element, he had both fire and water, ability to nourish (protect) and destroy. That's cause he had the senju will of fire flowing through him, he wanted to protect the village, but was very capable of destroying his clan mercilessly. Reason why I'm telling you all this, is cause it all adds up together. The rinnegan wielder has all elements, and they are able to choose whether they want to create/protect or destroy. They are capable of giving and taking life.

    Kishi is really good with symbolism ain't he, when you understand all this, you can see how everything simply fits so beautifully to the story. If you're still curious about the Amaterasu thing, I have alot more to add, I can explain why Naruto's a representation of Amaterasu, the original one, the whole six rasengan deal, and why it's a foreshadowing of the fact that Naruto's going to become the Yondaime Rikudou Sennin, meaning he'll gain the rinnegan, and become the Izanagi who seals Sasuke's Izanami (and all Mangekyou for good), and he'll be the one who sheds light upon the dark flames of Amaterasu restoring them to their former glory, the yellow flames.

    Quote Originally Posted by Afro Thunda View Post
    Well, if anything, it's about time for the concept of Yin/Yang (Light/Dark or what have you) chakra to be explained in full. Naruto has no clue about what that really means, so Killer Bee will explain it to him. It may not have anything to do with Physical or Spiritual energy at all. In any case, I hope Kishi does explain it soon so I can insert myself back into these "Rikudo this and that" debates again lol.
    lol, um, where you been, it was all explained in chapter 510, pay attention, or maybe it's all in my head? I would love to hear your input in those debates.

    If this post doesn't make things clear, then I think it's time for the great Afro Thunda to be asking questions himself.
    Last edited by Rokudaime Sennin ™; 12-04-2010 at 06:48 AM.
    A bridge towards peace; the will of fire still endures!


    Rokudaime Hokage, Rokudaime Rikudou Sennin Uzumaki Naruto

  6. #4916
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Do I understand correctly that when in Rikudo Mode, Naruto's chakra loss to the Fox is Minimal, but it increases gretaly if he forms a Shadow clone, if he tries to Transform into the fox, or take excessive amounts of Kyuubi Chakra?

    1) Will this not mean that in Sage Mode Naruto won't be using Kage Bunshins to Gather Sage energy?

    2) Will he be limited to the Sage /Kyuubi chakra he has gathered at the start then?

    Also:

    3) Sage Mode turns you into stone frog because the Natural energy influx while moving is too greta to balance (right or wrong?). If true, then won't moving while gathering Sage Energy in Rikudo Mode be a blessing, since the old fox will be sucking on the Natural Sage energy instaed of Narutos chakra?....Kishi knows I guess.

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  7. #4917
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliteKage View Post
    That still doesnt make sense. First of all, kirabi said the positive was the dark one and the negative one was the light one....unless thats another translation error.

    Also, heres my understanding of Yin-Yang let me know if it matches with yours.

    Chakra=Physical +Spiritual energy
    Yang Chakra=Dominantly Physical with little Spiritual
    Yin Chakra=Dominantly Spiritual with little Physical

    Naruto has the Kyuubis Yang Chakra(dominantly physical w/ little spiritual), thus im guessing the the positive (black) is the physical energy and the negative(white) must be the spiritual energy. Since Yang is dominantly physical, that must be why he has to keep it in that 8:2 ratio.
    That right.

    And I also don't like this negative/positive stuff for a couple reasons.
    This potentially could have something to with killerbee not well informed about the circumstances regarding the the fox inside Naruto. Minato sealed the fox's physical energy(and therefore his body, also note the fox shrink A LOT when Minato sealed him) within the death god, this why the fox needs naruto's body and why he tries to take over naruto's body.

    So if killerbee implied that positive/negative energy is physical/spiritual energy, Naruto wouldn't be able to a 8:2 ratio as the fox hasn't got access to his physical energy, it was sealed in the death god. So depending exactly what this positive/negative energy (maybe translation picking wrong words or maybe this is killerbee doing his over simplifications like he always does.) Naruto and the fox will have significantly different problems other than trying to be friends , which the by after Naruto just locked up the fox he won't want to help Naruto. The only way for the fox to help Naruto and I'VE ALWAYS SAID THIS, is to make a deal ,something where both Naruto and the fox benefit from eg "help me kill Madara", that's a reasonable deal.

    By the way this positive and negative energy could he something unique to izanagi as the so6p used to izanagi to create the tailed beats. Again kishi has given more questions than answers.
    Last edited by psukkar; 12-04-2010 at 07:13 AM.
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    If a theory can't explain the mysteries of the past, it has little chance to explain the mysteries of the present and future.

  8. #4918
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbee View Post
    Do I understand correctly that when in Rikudo Mode, Naruto's chakra loss to the Fox is Minimal, but it increases gretaly if he forms a Shadow clone, if he tries to Transform into the fox, or take excessive amounts of Kyuubi Chakra?

    1) Will this not mean that in Sage Mode Naruto won't be using Kage Bunshins to Gather Sage energy?

    2) Will he be limited to the Sage /Kyuubi chakra he has gathered at the start then?

    Also:

    3) Sage Mode turns you into stone frog because the Natural energy influx while moving is too greta to balance (right or wrong?). If true, then won't moving while gathering Sage Energy in Rikudo Mode be a blessing, since the old fox will be sucking on the Natural Sage energy instaed of Narutos chakra?....Kishi knows I guess.
    Yup, the fox is eating away at Naruto's chakra while he's in Rikudo Mode. The consequences of not being on good terms with the Kyuubi. And since Kagebunshins split the original's chakra among them equally, the Kyuubi would be siphoning chakra from all the clones at once.

    So, 1) This would only be the case if he intends to go into Rikudo Mode after entering Sage Mode, because if it's like what happened when Naruto was fighting Deidara for the first time when he went 2TK, if he goes into Rikudo Mode, his clones will enter it as well. And he would have the Kyuubi issue on his hands.

    2) Yea, he would be limited to only the Sage chakra he gathered in the beginning if he intended to use Rikudo Mode and Sage Mode together. He can't use KBs to replenish his Sage chakra. I could be misinterpreting your question here though.

    3) I think it would still be difficult to balance Sage chakra on the move even if we assume the Kyuubi would be sucking that in instead of Naruto's own chakra because if the Kyuubi is sucking in Sage chakra, he'll never attain the balance he needs to enter Sage Mode (still). And if he did somehow enter Sage Mode despite that issue, the time he'd spend in it would be even shorter because the Kyuubi is sucking away his chakra. So in my eyes, it's lose-lose either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    That right.

    And I also don't like this negative/positive stuff for a couple reasons.
    This potentially could have something to with killerbee not well informed about the circumstances regarding the the fox inside Naruto. Minato sealed the fox's physical energy(and therefore his body, also note the fox shrink A LOT when Minato sealed him) within the death god, this why the fox needs naruto's body and why he tries to take over naruto's body.

    So if killerbee implied that positive/negative energy is physical/spiritual energy, Naruto would be able to a 8:2 ratio as the fox hasn't got access to his physical energy, it was sealed in the death god. So depending exactly what this positive/negative energy (maybe translation picking wrong words or maybe this is killerbee doing his over simplifications like he always does.) Naruto and the fox will have significantly different problems other than trying to be friends with their tailed beasts, which the by after Naruto just locked up the fox he won't want to help Naruto. The only way for the fox to help Naruto and I'VE ALWAYS SAID THIS, is to make a deal ,something where both Naruto and the fox benefit from eg "help me kill Madara", that's a reasonable deal.

    By the way this positive and negative energy could he something unique to izanagi as the so6p used to izanagi to create the tailed beats. Again kishi has given more questions than answers.
    The bolded part I don't believe. Whether the fox was sealed in whole or the other half was sealed in Naruto instead, the Kyuubi would still be trying to take over Naruto's body. So that point is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

    Now, if we take into account the picture that was shown of the Kyuubi using his chakra attack when Killer Bee was explaining what Bijuu chakra was made of, it's pretty clear that even missing its Yin portion of chakra, the Kyuubi's chakra is still comprised of Light/Dark (Positive/Negative or what have you) chakra, hence the black and white orbs of chakra that went in to making the Kyuubi's chakra attack. So Killer Bee does know what he's talking about and Naruto can execute the technique as described.
    Last edited by Afro Thunda; 12-04-2010 at 06:51 AM.

  9. #4919
    Senior Member psukkar's Avatar
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    putting aside positive/negative energy for the moment.

    What do you think the fox would do if the seal broke on Naruto during the Pain fight? Would the fox exist as a separate entity once more and leave Naruto's body or use Naruto's body as medium to reign destruction?

    Before you answer consider whats happening to Naruto's body during the fox transformations and in particular the 4 tail mode and onwards.

  10. #4920
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukkar View Post
    putting aside positive/negative energy for the moment.

    What do you think the fox would do if the seal broke on Naruto during the Pain fight? Would the fox exist as a separate entity once more and leave Naruto's body or use Naruto's body as medium to reign destruction?

    Before you answer consider whats happening to Naruto's body during the fox transformations and in particular the 4 tail mode and onwards.
    If the seal broke, the Kyuubi would reform itself using Naruto's body as the medium. It's the same way for all Jinchuuriki if they lose control. Or else there would have been mention of Bijuu separating from the host body after the jinchuuriki lost control. So it isn't something that happens just because a part of a Bijuu is sealed if that's what you're trying to get at.

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