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  1. #2301
    Senior Member cross777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal-JyNxX View Post
    1) I can but even after an apology for misunderstanding him dummy still wanted to be hostile.

    2) I'm debating with Trigun about if Oro is forced to jump every 3 years or not.
    its been stated that he has to

  2. #2302
    Programming Guru Trigunflame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cross777 View Post
    its been stated that he has to
    Oh god, not again

    Read, everything, please.
    http://www.mangashare.com/forums/sho...postcount=2276
    Last edited by Trigunflame; 01-03-2010 at 05:44 AM.

  3. #2303
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigunflame View Post


    Spoiler!

    2) Notice he said 'Suitable containers'. As we know, Sasuke didn't make it to Orochimaru in time and he was forced to use a prisoner in Genyumaru. The fact he uses 'Suitable' lends itself to reason that using a proper container expands the period of time that Orochimaru can possess a body.

    3) That's a big stretch to suggest he could seamlessly carry over a Dōjutsu from one body to the next just by transferring his consciousness. The only way he could logically move Sharingans is to physically transfer them (aka Kakashi) from one to the next. Even then, he still wouldn't have the physical medium (Uchiha body) in order to utilize them at their maximum potential.

    As for a Uchiha being the second choice after Kaguya's Kimimaro. Care to show where this was said in the Manga? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't recall offhand and it would be nice to freshen my memory of it. I believe the encounter with Orochimaru and Itachi occured (remember, this is supposedly 7 years ago, Itachi being ~11-13) before he even met Kimimaro let alone thought of making him a container for his soul. It was shown then that he had a crush on Itachi's Sharingan.
    Spoiler!


    4) I don't think it's necessarily the physical body itself that contributes to it's suitability as a container, it's what's within it. For example, both Kabuto and Karin have made comments about Sasuke's Chakra in addition to Kimmimaro mentioning the Suitability that both of their bodies present.
    Spoiler!



    I initially only commented on the Facts presented from the Manga thus far, hence the reason I generally post images/data along with what I write.

    In this post, I've made some remarks in response to your 'Theories', that are equally subjective and hypothetical to your own. Until such time as the Manga proves otherwise, it is unknown exactly how long each body will last. Period.

    Try and respectfully disagree with others in the future, not just to me - instead of being derogatory all the time. No need to apologize, just be civil from now on. Remember, this is Naruto - it's not serious business...


    Interesting post but I think what makes Sasuke and Kimimaru suitable containers is more their potential to become S-class shinobi thus being able to withstand all of Orochimaru's life force essence.


    I mean think about it Orochimaru is one of the most powerful shinobi in the Narutoverse in order to contain that massive power he needs a body that can keep up. The weaker bodies Orochimaru was forced to take could sustain him for short while but they where too small for his massive life force essence thus he burnt out at times when pushing himself to far.


    A rough analogy would be trying to fit 55 gallons of water in a stretchable container that was meant to hold 40 gallons. Add in motion and under that much extra stress the container would likely break.


    The other back up bodies where strong people but not S-class potential shinobi capable of holding all his power thus limiting his capacity somewhat due to strain placed on the body.



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  4. #2304
    Heroes Don't Hav Red Eyes Immortal-JyNxX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cross777 View Post
    its been stated that he has to
    It's not set in stone but I believe it true.

  5. #2305
    Programming Guru Trigunflame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    Interesting post but I think what makes Sasuke and Kimimaru suitable containers is more their potential to become S-class shinobi thus being able to withstand all of Orochimaru's life force essence.


    I mean think about it Orochimaru is one of the most powerful shinobi in the Narutoverse in order to contain that massive power he needs a body that can keep up. The weaker bodies Orochimaru was forced to take could sustain him for short while but they where too small for his massive life force essence thus he burnt out at times when pushing himself to far.


    A rough analogy would be trying to fit 55 gallons of water in a stretchable container that was meant to hold 40 gallons. Add in motion and under that much extra stress the container would likely break.


    The other back up bodies where strong people but not S-class potential shinobi capable of holding all his power thus limiting his capacity somewhat due to strain placed on the body.

    I agree for the most part.

  6. #2306
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    Interesting post but I think what makes Sasuke and Kimimaru suitable containers is more their potential to become S-class shinobi thus being able to withstand all of Orochimaru's life force essence.


    I mean think about it Orochimaru is one of the most powerful shinobi in the Narutoverse in order to contain that massive power he needs a body that can keep up. The weaker bodies Orochimaru was forced to take could sustain him for short while but they where too small for his massive life force essence thus he burnt out at times when pushing himself to far.


    A rough analogy would be trying to fit 55 gallons of water in a stretchable container that was meant to hold 40 gallons. Add in motion and under that much extra stress the container would likely break.


    The other back up bodies where strong people but not S-class potential shinobi capable of holding all his power thus limiting his capacity somewhat due to strain placed on the body.

    I think you might be forgetting that the bodies are rejecting Orochimaru. It may not necessarily be that they can't handle Oro's life force. What made Kimimaro and Sasuke (back then) suitable containers were that they were devoted to Oro. If the Sasuke vs. Oro Inner dimension battle is any indication, Oro has to completely suppress the person who's body he intends to overtake. And if the person isn't completely suppressed, then after a time, the body may begin to reject Oro as evidenced when Oro was fighting 4TK Naruto.

  7. #2307
    Heroes Don't Hav Red Eyes Immortal-JyNxX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by POW View Post
    Interesting post but I think what makes Sasuke and Kimimaru suitable containers is more their potential to become S-class shinobi thus being able to withstand all of Orochimaru's life force essence.


    I mean think about it Orochimaru is one of the most powerful shinobi in the Narutoverse in order to contain that massive power he needs a body that can keep up. The weaker bodies Orochimaru was forced to take could sustain him for short while but they where too small for his massive life force essence thus he burnt out at times when pushing himself to far.


    A rough analogy would be trying to fit 55 gallons of water in a stretchable container that was meant to hold 40 gallons. Add in motion and under that much extra stress the container would likely break.


    The other back up bodies where strong people but not S-class potential shinobi capable of holding all his power thus limiting his capacity somewhat due to strain placed on the body.

    I believe this also. But I still don't think the bodies have unpredictable expiration dates. That 3 year cycle has to be solid. Having a body give out on him prior to the 3 year mark isn't a likely risk Orochimaru would take..

  8. #2308
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    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...9/page012.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...9/page013.html

    I really don't think that Orochimaru would be so desperate to get Sasuke's body if it were only useful to him for a 3 year period. Orochimaru's main reason for wanting Sasuke was because of his excellent sharingan, the same reason he wanted Itachi's. So that he can learn all the techniques in the world as quickly as possible, if he only got it for 3 years it wouldn't be very efficient. If that were the case he would be far better off just taking the sharingan like Kakashi or Danzou. Of course Orochimaru knows that the body of an Uchiha is the best way to use a sharingan but if the body were only good for 3 years then the effort he put into obtaining it seems like far too great a cost. If he just took the sharingan itself he could copy techniques for as long as he wants without needing to worry about a short expiry date.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...1/page012.html

    Orochimaru's reason for wanting an immortal body and wanting the sharingan are similar. He wants to learn every technique in existence to do that he needs an immortal body to live long enough to locate every technique. With the sharingan he can learn them extremely quickly and efficiently. I really doubt that having the sharingan for 3 years would be enough for him. Even look at someone like Kakashi who has had the sharingan for well over a decade, now 1000 techniques is a lot but Orochimaru talks about wanting to learn tens of thousands, 3 years wouldn't cut it.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...1/page015.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...2/page002.html

    Here Orochimaru says that he is waiting for Sasuke to grow up more to his tastes. Obviously he is in no hurry to obtain Sasuke's body at this point. He says plainly that he is waiting for Sasuke to grow up that would seem odd if he truly needed to change bodies every 3 years. Orochimaru only starts to persue Sasuke again when he realizes that Tsunade will not help him replace his arms, hence he needs to change bodies as quickly as possible.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...6/page016.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...9/page019.html
    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...8/page003.html

    Sasuke wasn't just any body, he was supposed to be the body, the one that Orochimaru would live out his future in. All of Orochimaru's comments and efforts leading up to obtaining Sasuke make the idea of it only being a 3 year deal seem totally absurd. If the 3 year limit were true for Sasuke's body, then honestly it is really bad writing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trigunflame View Post
    Well, it was a question asked on my behalf being that I didn't fully understand POW's viewpoint at the time.

    He summed it up later,


    Which would explain the ability to use that substitution technique assuming you subscribe to the theory that the technique is inherently linked to the White Snake body of Orochimaru.

    This of course all leads back to the original discussion we were having concerning Itachi's cutting off of Orochimaru's hand a while back and whether or not he could at that time have used the same substitution technique. In the case that it's linked, possibly not depending on how much experimentation he had done on his self by that time period. In the case that it wasn't linked, he could have simply later perform the substitution after the encounter.

    Very confusing stuff, I'd rather forget about it
    He does use the substitution but Orochimaru also has the ability to reform his body with the white snakes which is a bit different.

    http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...4/page010.html

    Orochimaru's body is the body of white snakes thus he is able to reform himself to some degree even without the substitution. On mutiple occasions Orochimaru takes hits that would kill normal people but his body recovers even without using the replacement. Sasuke obtained Orochimaru's techniques and gained benefits from Orochimaru's white snake body but he did not obtain the body itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal-JyNxX View Post

    If you ignore that mistake Oro wanted Kimm before Itachi and Sasuke. If you want to believe the 7 year thing he certainly went after Kimm before Sasuke. Why not go after Sasuke directly after failing with Itachi??
    I have seen nothing that indicates that Orochimaru wanted Kimimaro before Itachi, it has never been shown how early Orochimaru started to take interest in Itachi. Sasuke didn't have the sharingan until after he fought with Haku, Orochimaru wouldn't have much of a reason to persue Sasuke when he had yet to activate his sharingan. Itachi was a proven super genious nearly everyone acknowledged that he was something special. Orochimaru wanted someone who was amazingly exceptional, right after failing to take Itachi Sasuke was just a child and while skilled in general he didn't show the level of genious that Itachi did at that age.

    After he realized he couldn't get Itachi, it would make sense that Orochimaru would go for Kimimaro who was the only one powerful enough to survive the destruction of his own clan, he too was a proven super genious just of a different type. Sasuke on the other hand didn't really seem like he was of the same calibur at first, Orochimaru needed to look deeper, hence his appearance at the Chuunin exams and the way he tested Sasuke. Kimimaro seemed far superior as a host at that time, that is mentioned by the sound 4 aswell. Only after Kimimaro was found to be sick and thus unsuitable did Orochimaru turn his gaze to Sasuke who was finally starting to show signs of being a worthy candidate and obviously his relation to Itachi would be enough to inspire Orochimaru's attention.


    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal-JyNxX View Post
    But really, I seriously doubt Oro would risk himself by putting his soul in a body that might possibly give out on him before the 3 year "cool down" period of his jutsu is up..
    I agree, but I would also go futher to say that he wouldn't invest so much of himself into obtaining a body that would only last 3 years. At the time he took Genyumaru's body he was in a desperate position he needed to find a new body fast because of what had been done to him so he took the best one he happened to have on hand rather than one who he deemed ideal.

    Under normal circumstances, if the ritual is performed correctly I don't think that there is much of a risk of the body rejecting him. He had lost the ability to use all of his jutsu because his arms were sealed, so it seems natural to me that the process wouldn't go over as smoothly as normal. If Orochimaru had to go through a period of sever weakness every 3 years that would be a massive risk that would really weigh heavy against the benefits.

    I think that in the past Orochimaru switched bodies every 3 year because he wanted to, not because he had to. I just can't picture Orochimaru needing to go through what he did with Genyumaru everytime he wants to do a switch, if that were the case then his enemies would just need to wait 3 years and then take him down easy, I don't see Orochimaru taking that kind of risk.
    Last edited by artifice; 01-03-2010 at 11:21 AM.

  9. #2309
    Scanlator POW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal-JyNxX View Post
    I believe this also. But I still don't think the bodies have unpredictable expiration dates. That 3 year cycle has to be solid. Having a body give out on him prior to the 3 year mark isn't a likely risk Orochimaru would take..

    Well its possible but Orochimaru's goal was to get the perfect body and in order to obtain that he had to take calculated risks. I don't think his lesser bodies would give out on him on day 2 but there was always the possibility that a body could reject him after a long exposure to his massive life force after so many years depending on how he used it.

    Maybe its sort of like the way the MS causes blindness the more you use it. As this may also explain why he spent all his time hiding out because he didn't want to get into constant fights and put unnecessary strain on his lesser body.

    Also remember he had Kabuto with him whos expertise in medical ninjutsu and drugs could help him like he did when his 3rd body began to fail as he was taking medication.

    Spoiler!



    So yea I would say the 3 years may be a general timeline for the rejection of the lesser body but it was not exact as it may last slightly longer or if he pushed himself in constant fighting his body might start to reject him early so it was a calculated risk.


    Cause remember the fight with Sarutobi he was using the 1st and 2nd Hokage to do most of the fighting rather than his own body and stated he was going to take Sasuke once he grew up more to his liking.
    Last edited by POW; 01-03-2010 at 02:47 PM.


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  10. #2310
    ɹǝʎʍɐן Я I Hand Banana's Avatar
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    After 3 years the body starts to reject Orochimaru's soul I thought. I'll try to find it in the manga.

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