Abortion

[ydoc]

What about in the case of rape? You have to be open minded about subjects like these.

This brings up the whole argument of nature vs. nurture. Is it our enviroment that makes us who we we are or is it our genetics?

In my opinion it's the choice of the mother and, depending on the situation, father whether or not they want the child.

in the case of rape killing the child would be more of a punishment to the father, death sentace for his child and probably life in prison for the rapist. But then you back to the age old argument is revenge moral? is it legal?

[Hand Banana]

So you would put kids into an orphanage and let the state take are of them where they may not end up getting adopted. Having them suffer for 18 years just to be thrown out.

What about in the case of rape? You have to be open minded about subjects like these.

This brings up the whole argument of nature vs. nurture. Is it our environment that makes us who we we are or is it our genetics?

In my opinion it's the choice of the mother and, depending on the situation, father whether or not they want the child.

This is why I hate this subject as Wolvy said its touchy. I can see where Ydoc is coming from but at the sametime it should be a decision based upon the mother's well being. Both situation really depends on the mother of the child. I don't see how people can make a decision when its not their child or even in relation.

[zidane21ps]

Reguardless of the situation killing a baby is not acceptable in my book

Most important thing that should be said while discussing this topic,
abortion doesn't mean killing babies. Those aren't babies, nor children,
stop calling them that and bringing it on a extremly emotional level
this way, they don't have feelings, they don't have thoughts, it's
"just" an embryo, later fetus, please stick with that term.

Edit: And I agree with hand banana there... it is a touchy subject, I have
a clear opinion on it, so do many others. Yet, please try to remain objective
and cool, even if it's somehow directly related to you.

[ydoc]

This is why I hate this subject as Wolvy said its touchy. I can see where Ydoc is coming from but at the sametime it should be a decision based upon the mother's well being. Both situation really depends on the mother of the child. I don't see how people can make a decision when its not their child or even in relation.

exactly it depends on the situation the person is in, and none of us really have the right to make that choice for them. but i am not pro-choice because i see it as an easy cop for people not in the heart breaking situations that would actually require these drastic methods.

Most important thing that should be said while discussing this topic,
abortion doesn't mean killing babies. Those aren't babies, nor children,
stop calling them that and bringing it on a extremly emotional level
this way, they don't have feelings, they don't have thoughts, it's
"just" a fetus, please stick with that term.

Edit: And I agree with hand banana there... it is a touchy subject, I have
a clear opinion on it, so do many others. Yet, please try to remain objective
and cool, even if it's somehow directly related to you.

"The word fetus is from the Latin fetus, meaning offspring, bringing forth, hatching of young."

Except the word is latin and it's meaning is the opposite of what you describe.

you sound like the people at an spca who say we will euthanize instead of the word kill because its too political lol.

[zidane21ps]

I was wrong, I'm talking about Embryo's here...
yes, fetus takes the emotionality as well, and
fetus abortions are, for me, only okay if they
are medically relevant.

you sound like the people at an spca who say we will euthanize instead of the word kill because its too political lol.

No, not really, but what abortion-objectors do isn't really fair.
It's not a kid, not a child and not baby... people automatically
feel emotions hearing that and think about babbling, crawling
kids.

[ydoc]

I was wrong, I'm talking about Embryo's here...
yes, fetus takes the emotionality as well, and
fetus abortions are, for me, only okay if they
are medically relevant.



No, not really, but what abortion-objectors do isn't really fair.
It's not a kid, not a child and not baby... people automatically
feel emotions hearing that and think about babbling, crawling
kids.

If an embryo isnt a living being then i suppose the whole human race is as well not living beings. since we all started as an embryo and were nothing more then potential to be a living being, although i will agree with you an embryo probably can not think or feel and most likely is not aware of itself at that point in development. but I would be willing to bet if you were faced with the choice yourself to snuff out something with the potential to one day be your friend, little brother, or son you would think twice.

[pornography]

A mother is free to make a choice.

[kuroihikari]

It may sound extreme, but I believe abortion should be treated in the same way that murder is. Let me clarify though, that killing a person is justified in most countries when it's done in self-defense. So I believe that abortion is justified when the mother's life is in jeopardy or when carrying the baby would cause extreme psychological trauma to the mother, as is the case with rape.

[Asce]

I think it's plain murder. Sure, there is a thing called free will, but free will doesnt entitle you to killing human beings. You concieve a child, which means it's your responsibility, but people tend to give a crap about that and throw it away carelessly. Would you rather have a chance at life instead of dieing against your own will?

Considering the fetus cannot display its will, you have no way of knowing whether it is against its will or not. Free will entitles you to decide what you may do to your body and when there is something growing inside your uterus, you have the right to decide what happens to it. Saying abortion is murder is like saying I can't have a tapeworm removed from my intestines because then the tapeworm will die.

Hmmmm? God is the only one who has the right to take that life, no one else.

And when "God" instilled free will in man, he gave man that choice. Furthermore, all deaths are arguably lives taken by "God" so in the case of a successful abortion, "God" has thrown his support behind the man with the metal prong.

Reguardless of the situation killing a baby is not acceptable in my book, but if certain circumstances prevent the mother from taking care of the child i would whole heartedly agree with turning the child into a orphan to the state rather then killing the child outright. I belive that the child reguardless of the age once conceived is a living being reguardless of whether its the size of a peanut your squelching out a life.

And thus we have a bunch of over populated orphanages with miserable children. It's debatable whether or not the fetus would choose death or life in an orphanage, luckily, we'll never have to find out.

If you think about it in the terms of what if my parents decided to abort me, i think you will understand better.
Sure while you were inside of your mothers stomach you were nothing more then a unknown face, but your not that to them now are you? all it took was a little time and suddenly you could voice your own opinions. Inside the stomach it has been proven children can hear the tone of peoples voices and tend to recognize there mother and father(and anyone who was usually around them) when they come out.

If my parents decided to abort me, I would not be on this plane of existence. How exactly that "shocking revelation" has enlightened me I do not know. A little time and I could voice my opinions? Sure, if we could put off births for two years and wait for the fetus to communicate to the outside world, that might be a viable option.

so suffice it to say unless the mother is going to Die from carrying the child, I say that turning the child into an orphan if you do not want the child would be much better then killing the child. so for about 90% of the abortion cases i say no.

So it is the parent's responsibility to care for the child once it has been conceived...but they are allowed to throw the child away to an orphanage?

I could watch that baby for hours DFX, hilarious and your right, babies should have some say in this subject

You're absolutely right. I'm pretty sure that in 100% of the cases of abortion, there has never been verbal opposition from a fetus. I'll check up on that though.

exactly it depends on the situation the person is in, and none of us really have the right to make that choice for them. but i am not pro-choice because i see it as an easy cop for people not in the heart breaking situations that would actually require these drastic methods.

Easy cop out or not, if a person has decided to abort the fetus, she obviously feels no emotional attachment to the fetus and thus wouldn't be a fit parent anyway.

"The word fetus is from the Latin fetus, meaning offspring, bringing forth, hatching of young."

Except the word is latin and it's meaning is the opposite of what you describe.

you sound like the people at an spca who say we will euthanize instead of the word kill because its too political lol.

Actually it's all about connotation. Sure, when Zid or I use fetus or when you use baby, we're all referring to the unborn spawn inside a woman's uterus; however, with baby, the idea of it being sentient and emotional is given off while with the word fetus, what we are trying to say is that yes, while it is indeed living, it is not sentient. It cannot think for itself, it cannot make decisions for itself, it is the equivalent of a protozoan. While they are also living, I doubt anybody suspects they are capable of higher level thinking.

If an embryo isnt a living being then i suppose the whole human race is as well not living beings. since we all started as an embryo and were nothing more then potential to be a living being, although i will agree with you an embryo probably can not think or feel and most likely is not aware of itself at that point in development. but I would be willing to bet if you were faced with the choice yourself to snuff out something with the potential to one day be your friend, little brother, or son you would think twice.

I don't think anybody is debating whether or not an embryo is living. The debate isn't whether or not its living, it's whether or not it's sentient enough for an abortion to be considered murder. If you don't consider stepping on an ant to be murder, then you cannot consider abortion to be murder because in actuality, the ant is more intelligent than the fetus.

[Mass Zero]

Asce, I share all these thougts and opinions with you and you saved me a lot of typing. I especially like your comment about "God," if the fetus is to die due to abortion, it must've also been because "God" planned it. (I'm an atheïst myself, so I can't think as the believers do. But this does sound very logical.)