Madara & Orochimaru

[Freakshow]

Madara isn't just a few years older. He's decades older. And he has been doing the plotting, scheming, hiding, eternal pain, and killing for far longer than Orochimaru. Add to that invoking natural disasters and genocide..

Mention few happenings that puts Madara's experience on a higher lvl aside from the fact that hes older. I mean, it's not like Orochimaru was ever at peace.

Orochimaru may possibly have an advantage, but it's not at deviousness nor experience. And the fight with KN4, although it does prove Orochimaru's great skill, cannot be used as a comparison for his skill in fighting against an intelligent opponent: someone who is experienced and doesn't fight based on instinct.

I was referring to the speed. And when you say "Intelligent".. Shall we not make this one way argument and consider the fact that Orochimaru is not your regular powerhouse. It only indicates underestimation.

Yes, it may be possible for Orochimaru to defeat Madara, but it's really difficult for me to think of any Orochimaru technique that can bypass Madara's defense.

Exactly, this can be used against Madara. Has Madara really show anything that can actually kill Oro He hasn't. But Oro has shown Edo Tensei.
If Oro makes it in time, he will get the advantage.

[kuroihikari]

Mention few happenings that puts Madara's experience on a higher lvl aside from the fact that hes older. I mean, it's not like Orochimaru was ever at peace.

The first ninja war. The planned Uchiha rebellion. Plotting Akatsuki. Plotting the Uchiha Massacre.

Orochimaru has the ninja war and the Konoha invasion/stealing Sasuke. I honestly can't see how Orochimaru's experience can compare in any way to Madara's.

I was referring to the speed. And when you say "Intelligent".. Shall we not make this one way argument and consider the fact that Orochimaru is not your regular powerhouse. It only indicates underestimation.

I was saying that Orochimaru was fighting a Naruto who wasn't in control. KN4 was basically an animal fighting on nothing but instinct. That fight wouldn't be a fair comparison to any possible fight with Madara.

Exactly, this can be used against Madara. Has Madara really show anything that can actually kill Oro He hasn't. But Oro has shown Edo Tensei.
If Oro makes it in time, he will get the advantage.

The thing is, we haven't been shown Madara's best techniques because his life was never on the line. Orochimaru was on the verge of death several times, it's reasonable to assume that he has pulled out most of his stops. Thus, based on what we've seen Madara has much more to pull out of his sleeve than Orochimaru.

I don't think Edo Tensei's gonna be enough to stop Madara IF Madara knows it's coming.

[Freakshow]

You seem to have misunderstood me. Im saying in order for Oro to beat Madara, preparation is the key. Oro hasnt displayed any counters to the Sharingan, but if you have the examples please show me. Madara and Orochimaru have yet, to exhibit their repertoire. So the jutsu factor is still a "?".

Based on the characters themselves, Madara has lived for about 3 times the generations than Oro, was a genius himself, and matched Shodai in combat with his skills.

Its unknown if his skills have diminished, but based on his historical context, Oro really hasnt matched Madara in terms of experience due to the fact that Madara faced higher caliber opponents, and has lived long enough to observe generational efforts.

Oro is a genious too, but is limited from his lack of doujutsu, or counter to the Sharingan, which Madara time and time again in history used expertly. Thats all we can conclude. We cant say whos jutsus are better. But due to his losses, directly due to abilities of the Sharingan, it is rational, to assume he would lose against the founder of MS.

So while it is unlikely that Oro can beat Madara due to the ambiguity of their power, with much preperation, counter strategies and immortal killing jutsu, Oro can defeat Madara.

Umm... Although I understand your point, I disagree. I mean, your totally correct on Madara, but the argument your bringing seems one sided at this point. Founder of MS, experience, age = All together is not an advantage against Orochimaru. The guy beats Madara in insanity and achievements. And hes only access to his achievement within 30 +- years. While Madara having the freedom to do whatever he wanted in so many years still came out insignificant against someone like Hashirama and now Konoha.

I would totally go with Shodai >>> All any day, but fallowing close on logic, it might tell otherwise. Like - How two KB were enough to seal both Nidaime and the Shodai while the original Sarutobi couldn't seal Orochimaru's entire soul.- Fallowing this puts Oro ahead.

Although your correct; Orochimaru's is limited. Not because of Sharingan because inn order for him to do anything or have any advantage he requires knowledge of the opponent, in which he would need to do preparations.

But claiming hes weak to Sharingan in general is invalid.

The first ninja war. The planned Uchiha rebellion. Plotting Akatsuki. Plotting the Uchiha Massacre.

Orochimaru has the ninja war and the Konoha invasion/stealing Sasuke. I honestly can't see how Orochimaru's experience can compare in any way to Madara's.

I was saying that Orochimaru was fighting a Naruto who wasn't in control. KN4 was basically an animal fighting on nothing but instinct. That fight wouldn't be a fair comparison to any possible fight with Madara.

The thing is, we haven't been shown Madara's best techniques because his life was never on the line. Orochimaru was on the verge of death several times, it's reasonable to assume that he has pulled out most of his stops. Thus, based on what we've seen Madara has much more to pull out of his sleeve than Orochimaru.

I don't think Edo Tensei's gonna be enough to stop Madara IF Madara knows it's coming.

- I still disagree. Read my response to Steve.

- Well, your right. But still, I was referring to "Speed". It was about Madara being able to blitz Orochimaru.

- Err. I highly disagree. But because I said why in a previous post, repeating myself would be lame. We have barely seen a fragment of what Orochimaru has to offer with his multitudes of Kinjutsu.

- But when it gets done. It will be done.

[Zubine]

IMO Orochimaru is extremely powerful, and I mean powerful, match him up with anyone that doesn't have a sharigan and chances are he would win. But agianst Madara I don't think he can win, no real reason why it's just a gut feeling.

[kiduka]

How do you even touch madara anyway?

[kuroihikari]

- I still disagree. Read my response to Steve.

- Err. I highly disagree. But because I said why in a previous post, repeating myself would be lame. We have barely seen a fragment of what Orochimaru has to offer with his multitudes of Kinjutsu.

- But when it gets done. It will be done.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I just don't see how Orochimaru is more cunning and devious than Madara, a guy who has managed to stay hidden and yet still pull strings for almost a century.

The speed of the Kyuubi doesn't compare to Madara's speed.

Lastly, I doubt Oro had any other more powerful techniques, or else he would've used them already in order to prevent his hiatus. His Kinjutsu are just that: forbidden jutsu. We don't even know if they were battle jutsu.

[Stev3child]

Umm... Although I understand your point, I disagree. I mean, your totally correct on Madara, but the argument your bringing seems one sided at this point. Founder of MS, experience, age = All together is not an advantage against Orochimaru. The guy beats Madara in insanity and achievements. And hes only access to his achievement within 30 +- years. While Madara having the freedom to do whatever he wanted in so many years still came out insignificant against someone like Hashirama and now Konoha.

I would totally go with Shodai >>> All any day, but fallowing close on logic, it might tell otherwise. Like - How two KB were enough to seal both Nidaime and the Shodai while the original Sarutobi couldn't seal Orochimaru's entire soul.- Fallowing this puts Oro ahead.

Although your correct; Orochimaru's is limited. Not because of Sharingan because inn order for him to do anything or have any advantage he requires knowledge of the opponent, in which he would need to do preparations.

But claiming hes weak to Sharingan in general is invalid.

Oro's insanity is a double edged sword. While it does fuel the motivation behind his experiments, it can ruin it due to his ambition getting in the way of rationality. Against Itachi, the 3rd, and Itachi again shows that his irrational thinking, led him to losing more than he gains sometimes. Like say his life.

I disagree that Oro has surpassed Madara in achievements. Scientific achievements maybe. But in other aspects like history changing achievements, he hasnt quite garnered that type of significance as Madara.

But both of these things are quite insignificant in battle. As you see, knowledge, experience, skill set, power, speed and endurance are however, the key aspects utilized in battle. Achievements, become a part of your skill set, and personality is a product of experience, and knowledge.

We know that Oro has been defeated twice, directly linked to the abilities of the mangekyou sharingan. Not just Oro, but everyone has fell victim to its might. Thats why they along with the senju were the most feared clans. Oro has yet to counter the sharingan in general. Noone, except Sharingan users have countered it. So the pattern shows that the Uchiha, are Oro's rivals essentially. The techniques of Sharingan are hax, and Oro has been unable to counter them. Thats why Oro is so fascinated with sharingan.

Oro, needs to make preparations to defeat Madara, because of his sharingan, and its esoteric nature. Not saying hes weak to it like a fire is weak to water, im saying he's at disadvantage, not being able to counter it.

[POW]

BTW a funny side note according to the Databook 3 translation Madara's favorite word is "insta-kill"

[[CiTo]]

How do you even touch madara anyway?

Everyone has a weakness, lets just wait and see.

[mayanaya]

orochimaru can summon first hokage. first hokage > Madara + kyuubi.
so, oro > madara, my vote is yes