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  1. #131
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    Well here is the source on Genjutsu:

    Spoiler!


    Take a deep breath....

    This confirms that Genjutsu is the manipulation of the chakra flow (which is connected to the nervous system) in the brain. This controls sensory information only.

    The Genjutsu user "traps" their opponent by sending out their own chakra to manipulate the flow in the opponent's brain (think puppet jutsus but a lot more subtle).

    Getting out of a Genjutsu requires you or someone else to further manipulate your internal chakra flow. This would cause the flow to become less predictable and the original manipulator would be unable to control it, thus wasting chakra in the attempt.

    The Kyuubi is probably taking this all up a notch (Similar to Ino's technique). It completely overwhelms Naruto's regular chakra flow to the point that it takes over. This is also probably why it harms Naruto, as too much chakra is passing through him.

    SPIRIT + BODY = USABLE CHAKRA.

    Both spirit and body must be present to function. No spirit is a coma. No body is death. Genjutsu interferes with a specific link between the body (the sensory part of the brain) and spirit.

    Naruto's spirit is pushed aside and replaced by the Kyuubi's thus Naruto isn't comatose. And the body acts with the the new spirit. Naruto probably isn't cut off completely most likely due to the seal. Therefore he can come back. Also the kyuubi is connected with the seal, thus it can connect in such a fashion.

    I can only think of two reasons why the Kyuubi's control doesn't last.

    1) The seal - This is, on some level, under Naruto's control, like some sort of mental on/off switch. At any point Naruto can turn it off (sub-consciously only it seems right now) or there is a sort of time limit.

    2) Physical Strain - With chakra manipulation there are 2 components (3 with sage mode) that must remain in some sort of balance in order to function. It doesn't have to be perfect to make it work, but there are side effects when unbalanced (becoming a frog with too much nature for example).

    The body has only so much stamina. If you use too much of the spirit or if you don't have enough stamina, pain or eventually death occurs. Because the fox needs Naruto's body to stick around it can't kill him, so it has to go away so Naruto can recuperate.

    On my next broadcast (heh) The Grand Chakra Theory with graphs and junk!

    -------------

    Bleh, such a mouthful and I still have more to say that is on topic.

    I really see two potential outcomes of sage training relating to interacting with the Kyuubi.

    1) Kyuubi replaces Naruto's spirit component, thus allowing him to compensate for more Nature chakra. This would in turn allow Naruto to draw out more of the Kyuubi's power before his body shuts down.

    The downside to this method is that I don't believe Naruto is in control at this point and the Kyuubi is no sage. (For that matter neither was Minato as far as I know, so I don't think this is "That Jutsu").

    2) Kyuubi replaces the nature chakra, keeping Naruto in control. It may be easier to achieve (as it seems Naruto has done it before untrained) and easier to sustain.

    The downside may be that replacing nature chakra may not be possible, although I think it likely.

    So perhaps sage training is a primer on Kyuubi management?

  2. #132
    Mind f*cked beyond repair Stev3child's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingSoze View Post
    Well here is the source on Genjutsu:

    Spoiler!


    Take a deep breath....

    This confirms that Genjutsu is the manipulation of the chakra flow (which is connected to the nervous system) in the brain. This controls sensory information only.

    The Genjutsu user "traps" their opponent by sending out their own chakra to manipulate the flow in the opponent's brain (think puppet jutsus but a lot more subtle).

    Getting out of a Genjutsu requires you or someone else to further manipulate your internal chakra flow. This would cause the flow to become less predictable and the original manipulator would be unable to control it, thus wasting chakra in the attempt.

    The Kyuubi is probably taking this all up a notch (Similar to Ino's technique). It completely overwhelms Naruto's regular chakra flow to the point that it takes over. This is also probably why it harms Naruto, as too much chakra is passing through him.

    SPIRIT + BODY = USABLE CHAKRA.

    Both spirit and body must be present to function. No spirit is a coma. No body is death. Genjutsu interferes with a specific link between the body (the sensory part of the brain) and spirit.

    Naruto's spirit is pushed aside and replaced by the Kyuubi's thus Naruto isn't comatose. And the body acts with the the new spirit. Naruto probably isn't cut off completely most likely due to the seal. Therefore he can come back. Also the kyuubi is connected with the seal, thus it can connect in such a fashion.

    I can only think of two reasons why the Kyuubi's control doesn't last.

    1) The seal - This is, on some level, under Naruto's control, like some sort of mental on/off switch. At any point Naruto can turn it off (sub-consciously only it seems right now) or there is a sort of time limit.

    2) Physical Strain - With chakra manipulation there are 2 components (3 with sage mode) that must remain in some sort of balance in order to function. It doesn't have to be perfect to make it work, but there are side effects when unbalanced (becoming a frog with too much nature for example).

    The body has only so much stamina. If you use too much of the spirit or if you don't have enough stamina, pain or eventually death occurs. Because the fox needs Naruto's body to stick around it can't kill him, so it has to go away so Naruto can recuperate.

    On my next broadcast (heh) The Grand Chakra Theory with graphs and junk!

    -------------

    Bleh, such a mouthful and I still have more to say that is on topic.

    I really see two potential outcomes of sage training relating to interacting with the Kyuubi.

    1) Kyuubi replaces Naruto's spirit component, thus allowing him to compensate for more Nature chakra. This would in turn allow Naruto to draw out more of the Kyuubi's power before his body shuts down.

    The downside to this method is that I don't believe Naruto is in control at this point and the Kyuubi is no sage. (For that matter neither was Minato as far as I know, so I don't think this is "That Jutsu").

    2) Kyuubi replaces the nature chakra, keeping Naruto in control. It may be easier to achieve (as it seems Naruto has done it before untrained) and easier to sustain.

    The downside may be that replacing nature chakra may not be possible, although I think it likely.

    So perhaps sage training is a primer on Kyuubi management?
    On the genjutsu subject: Yes you are right about how the user uses chakra to target the brain to manipulate any of the 5 senses a person has. But you cannot say that the Kyuubi uses genjutsu to control Naruto. He pushes his conscience aside and releases his chakra into Naruto's chakra circulatory system. The Kyuubi uses NAruto's body because he's a part of it and has control over it because he occupies Naruto's brain thus giving him control.
    His control over him is triggered by the release of his chakra by Naruto's emotions. It is Naruto's fault that the Kyuubi gets to take over. Naruto triggers it with his emotions, and the Kyuubi exploits those unstable emotions to take control. Not through genjutsu.

    I believe the sage training has prioritized Naruto's interest in taming the Kyuubi. Because he cannot go further in his training without it. And his battles capabilities are limited due to that because the frog cannot merge with him, thus not being able to collect natural energy in a battle. the sage training has brought on a new possible objective to Naruto. all of this time Naruto has been ignoring the Kyuubi, but now that it actually hinders his abilities, he will need to conquer the Kyuubi. And the sage training is one thing I dont see being related to that. A more probable thing is the neclace he wears since it has properties of suppressing the Kyuubi. So training and practicing with that will be a more likely road.
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  3. #133
    Senior Member ydoc's Avatar
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    Thanks for clearing up what i was trying to say earlier, you seem to see my point that in essence it is a genjutsu. i also like your idea's on the use of the sage chakra.

    There also seems to be a subtle understanding that the kyuubi has he wont seem to do anything that could kill naruto.

    @steve: your really hung up on the fact that we are saying a tailed beast can do a technique aren't you, he has chakra and a brain capable of understanding how to use that chakra thats is all that is needed to perform a jutsu of any kind.

  4. #134
    Mind f*cked beyond repair Stev3child's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    Thanks for clearing up what i was trying to say earlier, you seem to see my point that in essence it is a genjutsu. i also like your idea's on the use of the sage chakra.

    There also seems to be a subtle understanding that the kyuubi has he wont seem to do anything that could kill naruto.

    @steve: your really hung up on the fact that we are saying a tailed beast can do a technique aren't you, he has chakra and a brain capable of understanding how to use that chakra thats is all that is needed to perform a jutsu of any kind.
    The Kyuubi doesnt have a brain. He gets his conscience from Naruto's brain. And Naruto hasnt learned, or grasped how to do genjutsu.

    Instead of believing its genjutsu, I disagree that its any jutsu at all. Its not a technique, and he isnt creating an illusion for Naruto. HE takes his conscience over, and controls his mind and his body.
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    I swear if your theories were any dumber I would be retarded...

  5. #135
    Senior Member ydoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve3child View Post
    The Kyuubi doesnt have a brain. He gets his conscience from Naruto's brain. And Naruto hasnt learned, or grasped how to do genjutsu.

    Instead of believing its genjutsu, I disagree that its any jutsu at all. Its not a technique, and he isnt creating an illusion for Naruto. HE takes his conscience over, and controls his mind and his body.

    >.> all the tailed beasts have there own personality and life. we saw that much in the battle between Gaara and naruto where we got to see Shukaku fight and he acted behaved and fought nothing like gaara.

    i suppose you can choose to believe the tailed beasts have no free will of there own but even an animal has a brain and the ability to move about where it see's fit.

    On top of that to further prove my point that the kyuubi has a mind, he demonstrates this in the conversation between sasuke and himself by saying his chakra is the same evil chakra of madara uchiha. If you believe that the kyuubi obtains its mind from naruto, then you can not be correct naruto did not know about madara, so where did the kyuubi learn this from i wonder? Memories of his own mayhap?

    Spoiler!


    Spoiler!

  6. #136
    Senior Member paulbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve3child View Post
    The Kyuubi doesnt have a brain. He gets his conscience from Naruto's brain. And Naruto hasnt learned, or grasped how to do genjutsu.

    Instead of believing its genjutsu, I disagree that its any jutsu at all. Its not a technique, and he isnt creating an illusion for Naruto. HE takes his conscience over, and controls his mind and his body.
    This Idea goes against every indication from the Manga including this:
    Spoiler!



    Sasuke and 9Tails were discussing things Naruto had no knowledge about.

    I am not perfect and I defy you to prove otherwise
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  7. #137
    Mind f*cked beyond repair Stev3child's Avatar
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    However, this immense strength is tempered due to their bestial nature, which restricts them from being smart enough to use it effectively. Beasts sealed within another person are able to benefit from the knowledge of their hosts, giving them the ability to speak and better utilize their powers.
    I got that form wikipedia, and formed an idea of it. Yes the beasts are capable of remembering and referring information. But without the hosts intelligence, they are nothing more than beasts with a conscience with very little mental capacity. With that said, in order to do jutsu's, you need to combine stamina with spirit, with that said you also need mental capacity. And since the Kyuubi draws his mental capacity from Naruto, a person who is doesnt use genjutsu, it can be assumed it cannot either. So it can be said that the Kyuubi uses Naruto's brain and mental capacity to utilize its experience and recall certain events.

    Now besides that, my assertion is that the tailed do not use genjutsu, or jutsu in that case, but use there own presence to take over the hosts mind. And taking over someones mind by utilizing there emotions is not genjutsu.
    QUOTE(s) OF THE MOMENT

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    I swear if your theories were any dumber I would be retarded...

  8. #138
    Senior Member ydoc's Avatar
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    Lol and wikipedia is the truth for all, i quote wiki too but only when i know i can back it up with manga pages as proof if i need to. show me something in the manga that shows that, otherwise i am done with the argument, because there is no use reasoning with someone who can't see past the forest for the trees =p

  9. #139
    Mind f*cked beyond repair Stev3child's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydoc View Post
    Lol and wikipedia is the truth for all, i quote wiki too but only when i know i can back it up with manga pages as proof if i need to. show me something in the manga that shows that, otherwise i am done with the argument, because there is no use reasoning with someone who can't see past the forest for the trees =p
    I will have to read every chapter but meh i have nothing else to do for the next week -__-. My argument still stands that the beasts do not use genjutsu to take over, but use the hosts uncontrollable emotions. And that is evidenced when Naruto loses complete control and his emotions get the bet of him. Like I said, Naruto is the trigger of the Kyuubi's takeover.
    QUOTE(s) OF THE MOMENT

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Death View Post
    I swear if your theories were any dumber I would be retarded...

  10. #140
    Senior Member Afro Thunda's Avatar
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    Genjutsu wouldn't explain the physical change that Naruto goes through when the Kyuubi takes over. If its genjutsu, its all happening in Naruto's head therefore, Naruto should only be thinking he's transforming. But this is clearly not the case.

    And really, if your basing the genjutsu claim on the sole fact that Naruto goes unconscious as a result of the Kyuubi taking over, then wouldn't it be logical to assume that anytime Naruto is unconscious, he risks being taken over by the Kyuubi? But we know this isn't the case either since the Kyuubi would be continually trying to take him over. So it can't be genjutsu. The Kyuubi is just taking over. Plain and Simple. No genjutsu about it.

    Also, it has been stated in the manga that Bijuu are not intelligent creatures due to their immense power. Deidara was the one who stated that while capturing the 3-tails. He also said that a Bijuu is more dangerous when its sealed in a Jinchuuriki as its power can be used more effectively.

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