[jest1081]

it does appear that everyone is a 'genius' in konoha, in one way or another. lol.

i think we are all geniuses too... in trying to figure out these konoha geniuses. heh

[huller20]

Originally Posted by Stev3child

You should be crediting the Kyuubi for that insanely powerful chakra.

Actually Naruto himself has insane chakra, that is the reason he can even stand the kyubi. There's a reason yondaime chose him...because he knew Naruto could use the Kyubi's power. http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...9/page011.html

Originally Posted by Stev3child

Minato developed Rasengan, which is a bigger feat than adding an element to it.

I don't think so. Once Minato discovered it, he still failed to add an element. But Naruto did. Minato tried and failed, Naruto succeeded.

Originally Posted by Stev3child

Naruto had guidance the whole way throughout. I disagree with your point about Kishi contradicting Naruto's character. Kishi presented Naruto's character as the under-achiever. He started out with nothing but a dream. The one who must work hard to discover their talents. He isnt the biggest genious of this manga. And if in your opinion he's the biggest genious in this manga, its because he worked hard, under the tutelage of the wise.

I agree Naruto was always talented. Lets just compare:

Naruto age 15, summons Gamabunta, goes sage mode, masters S rank rasenshuriken.

Jiraiya age 20: http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...9/page011.html

As you can see, no frogs, no sage mode, no ma and pa. In fact, Orochimaru hasn't summoned Manda either. No katsuya from tsunade either. There are dead Konoha ninjas in the background who aren't being healed.

Naruto's talent> sannin> Orochimari, therfore Naruto> genius level with his talent...

Its no secret really. People like Suigetsu and Neji are considered geniuses. I really don't understand why people are apprehensive of calling Naruto the genius, given how he has left everybody in the shadows http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...0/page018.html

Rlinfamous is countering these claims by suggesting that Sasuke lacks willpower and therefore Naruto is able to be on par with him. He simply invented this. In fact, Sasuke sacrificed more than anyone, and I would say nobody rivals him in commitment.

@ Jest

Yup yup lol

[kuroihikari]

Most Naruto readers have bought into Kishi's manga definition of genius, and find it mostly consistent. All the other "geniuses" you've mentioned have developed new or unique techniques on their own and learned them at an exceptional speed using only their natural born-talents, Naruto hasn't done anything of that sort. He has always relied on teachers and on overuse of a tool (his KB) for bypassing his natural slow learning rate.

You can always apply other definitions of "genius" to the context used in the manga, but since you're using an entirely different connotation than we do, what's the point of your arguing it? You're using a different name-game; we're not going to get anywhere.

Your only argument that's relevant is the learning speed of KB, and I'm stating that nowhere is it stated that KB is difficult to learn.

[huller20]

Originally Posted by kuroihikari

Most Naruto readers have bought into Kishi's manga definition of genius, and find it mostly consistent. All the other "geniuses" you've mentioned have developed new or unique techniques on their own and learned them at an exceptional speed using only their natural born-talents, Naruto hasn't done anything of that sort. He has always relied on teachers and on overuse of a tool (his KB) for bypassing his natural slow learning rate.

Naruto is the only person who can use that many Kage Bunshins (KB). His chakra is one of a kind, and perhaps the only one that can resist the 9 tails chakra. That is god given talent right there.

Now you state a genius is one who develops new or unique techniques. I disagree. A genius is one who can learn an uber jutsu regardless of who created it. Naruto added wind element ot rasengan, and he learned sage mode with approximately 9 days of training (3 days times 3 Kage Bunshins). Jiraiya couldn't do it his whole life.

You believe that Naruto using his KB to learn jutsu so quickly is not equivalent to using his "natural born-talents". I disagree. His insane chakra pool was the root cause of his ability to learn jutsu. Yes his IQ may not be 140, but that doesn't mean he is not incredibly gifted in other departments that overcompensate.

Originally Posted by kuroihikari

You can always apply other definitions of "genius" to the context used in the manga, but since you're using an entirely different connotation than we do, what's the point of your arguing it? You're using a different name-game; we're not going to get anywhere.

Your only argument that's relevant is the learning speed of KB, and I'm stating that nowhere is it stated that KB is difficult to learn.

I am stating his insane chakra pool necessitates him being called a genius. If he didn't have it, then he would fail, no matter how hard he trained.

You are stating that learning a jutsu quickly warrants the title of genius. But you state that in effect KB render Naruto unworthy of being called a genius despite the fact that he added an element to rasengan which yondaime couldn't in a couple of days. I am disagreeing.

A 15 year old Naruto is was stonger than a 20 year old Orochimaru. Regardless of which jutsu they used, Naruto's uber blessing of insane chakra overcomes all the 'genius' of Orochimaru. Why is Naruto not a genius?

In short, people are falsely identifying Naruto's hard work as the cause of his success, when in fact it is his insane chakra pool that allows him to use KB and surpass eveyone. That is divine ability right there.

[Rlinfamous]

By your definition, a person beating Einstein in an arm-wrestling match (something the average person could do) would make anyone a genius. That's not how the whole "genius" thing works.

Naruto didn't use a jutsu to burn Orochimaru. In fact, he didn't use anything, the fox did it all. And so what if it burned Orochimaru? It burned Naruto, too. No one accepts the fox as a sign that Naruto himself is a genius, hence Yamato saying "That isn't your true power".

The Rasenshuriken thing was partly Naruto's skill with Kagebunshin, and partly Kakashi helping him. For him to be a genius, he would have to go about adding the element in a way that goes beyond anyone's expectations. Instead, he worked within those expectations, in an unconventional manner. That's what made him different from the Fourth; the Fourth was attempting to "look right and left at the same time", which would indeed take impressive skill. It's likely impossible. However, Naruto, once again, fell back on his KB training wheels to do what no one else could.

In the end, using two clones to create Rasenshuriken is just a massive circle-jerk that Naruto came up with while thinking about Sasuke. Cleverly used, but not genius.

Sage Mode would be the only time where he learned something legitimately "very fast", regardless of how he did it. The reason is because he didn't take any Kagebunshin shortcuts to actually enter Sage Mode. But I mean, he had it explained to him in terms of adding mint ice cream to a twist cone. He only learned it because he was naturally driven and had incredible guts, which Pa Frog has stated are the "qualities of a Sage". In short, it learned Sage Mode because he was already Sage-like. Sage-like in this manga equates to "Naruto-like"... so while Jiraiya was close, Naruto himself obviously wins.

[kuroihikari]

Originally Posted by huller20

Naruto is the only person who can use that many Kage Bunshins (KB). His chakra is one of a kind, and perhaps the only one that can resist the 9 tails chakra. That is god given talent right there.

No one's contesting that its not natural talent, but it's not the context of "genius" used elsewhere in the manga. Thus making your entire argument moot. Why do you insist on bringing another context in, when the discussion about genius is about the "genius" Kishi has used to term certain characters?

You don't see people calling Kisame a genius because of his insane chakra for example. Or why Neji is a genius while Hinata isn't while they share the same god given talent (the Byakugan).

[Amargo Deathscythe]

Originally Posted by huller20

Naruto is the only person who can use that many Kage Bunshins (KB). His chakra is one of a kind, and perhaps the only one that can resist the 9 tails chakra. That is god given talent right there.

Now you state a genius is one who develops new or unique techniques. I disagree. A genius is one who can learn an uber jutsu regardless of who created it. Naruto added wind element ot rasengan, and he learned sage mode with approximately 9 days of training (3 days times 3 Kage Bunshins). Jiraiya couldn't do it his whole life.

You believe that Naruto using his KB to learn jutsu so quickly is not equivalent to using his "natural born-talents". I disagree. His insane chakra pool was the root cause of his ability to learn jutsu. Yes his IQ may not be 140, but that doesn't mean he is not incredibly gifted in other departments that overcompensate.



I am stating his insane chakra pool necessitates him being called a genius. If he didn't have it, then he would fail, no matter how hard he trained.

You are stating that learning a jutsu quickly warrants the title of genius. But you state that in effect KB render Naruto unworthy of being called a genius despite the fact that he added an element to rasengan which yondaime couldn't in a couple of days. I am disagreeing.

A 15 year old Naruto is was stonger than a 20 year old Orochimaru. Regardless of which jutsu they used, Naruto's uber blessing of insane chakra overcomes all the 'genius' of Orochimaru. Why is Naruto not a genius?

In short, people are falsely identifying Naruto's hard work as the cause of his success, when in fact it is his insane chakra pool that allows him to use KB and surpass eveyone. That is divine ability right there.

thats not talent. thats having a demon in side of you. take away the kyuubi and naruto is just another fodder nin

[Argonar]

Naruto isn't a genius at all, he has to work hard for everything he accomplishes

But because he has a huge stamina, does never give up and pushes himself to his limits, he has been able to learn jutsu that he should not have been able to (or at least not then) And even less in such short periods of time.

Of course it's awesome he could accomplish all of that and not everything he did is because of the Kyuubii, but a true true Genius like Sasuke, Neji and Orochimaru does not have to work so hard for a single jutsu and Naruto always had a tutor to teach him something new, he didn't have to completely develope something on his own yet.

Remember how Kakashi is shocked the first time he sees Sasuke's Goukakyo no jutsu? At this time (and as we learn during the flashback, he could already several years earlier) he could already manipulate fire and during the chuunin exams learned lightning element too. Mastring one element normally takes years and yet he learned two of them in short periods, and he did it without the KB trick.

Neji on his own developed a jutsu that already existed, but only the head of his clan could use and that he has never seen or heard about. He didn't even know it existed. And Orochimaru developed tons of forbidden jutsu on his own and learned even more jutsu from just reading theories in books.

Naruto is a great ninja, but no genius at all, exactly like his teacher Jiraya. He had, has and always will have to work hard but at least he deserves his power ups.
Some geniuses in Naruto almost receive everything with no effort at all.

[Rlinfamous]

Originally Posted by Argonar

Naruto is a great ninja, but no genius at all, exactly like his teacher Jiraya. He had, has and always will have to work hard but at least he deserves his power ups.
Some geniuses in Naruto almost receive everything with no effort at all.

I almost feel bad for Sasuke... he spends three years developing jutsu, then unlocks his MS and replaces all of them with S-class moves.

[atriede]

Originally Posted by Argonar

Naruto isn't a genius at all, he has to work hard for everything he accomplishes

But because he has a huge stamina, does never give up and pushes himself to his limits, he has been able to learn jutsu that he should not have been able to (or at least not then) And even less in such short periods of time.

Of course it's awesome he could accomplish all of that and not everything he did is because of the Kyuubii, but a true true Genius like Sasuke, Neji and Orochimaru does not have to work so hard for a single jutsu and Naruto always had a tutor to teach him something new, he didn't have to completely develope something on his own yet.

Remember how Kakashi is shocked the first time he sees Sasuke's Goukakyo no jutsu? At this time (and as we learn during the flashback, he could already several years earlier) he could already manipulate fire and during the chuunin exams learned lightning element too. Mastring one element normally takes years and yet he learned two of them in short periods, and he did it without the KB trick.

Neji on his own developed a jutsu that already existed, but only the head of his clan could use and that he has never seen or heard about. He didn't even know it existed. And Orochimaru developed tons of forbidden jutsu on his own and learned even more jutsu from just reading theories in books.

Naruto is a great ninja, but no genius at all, exactly like his teacher Jiraya. He had, has and always will have to work hard but at least he deserves his power ups.
Some geniuses in Naruto almost receive everything with no effort at all.

Sasuke's father tutored him in using fire jutsu the same way naruto was tutored in usind wind.

Sasukes achievement of mastering a simple basic technique of Katon is impressive but not as impressive as Mastering Sage mode in one week. at age 15. Simple.

Sasuke was trained to use chidori by Kakashi. He then went of to develop chidori spin offs the same way Naruto was trained in rasenshuriken but made it his own by using senjutsu to make it a long range attack.

Sasuke's snake jutsu's were the result of training with orochimaru.



The S class moves Sasuno, amaretsu and Tsukiyomi are all automaticaly inherited cheats, there's no requirement of talent , you simple have have a sharingan and kill someone you want. However like naruto he's taking jutsu's that he did not develop by himself and making it his own i.e. his control of amaretsu.


That narrows down the list of Sasuke's own original jutsu to just two. A basic katon jutsu that is shaped like a dragon for stylistic effect, but does not appear s class. And Kirin.

His other fighting styles such as moving lightning through his sword is not original, in fact its a basic form of element manipulation similar to asuma using wind on his blades. The reason Sasuke is able to do this is because of a special sword he recieved for orochimaru.

Is Sasuke a genius yep. But the premise that he's gained most of his jutsus through his own training and not because of tutelage and automatic bloodline cheats is exagerated.