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Originally Posted by
SCarred Luffy Lvl:Z
To be honest, I don't completely agree with either of you, especially on some points. But since you addressed most of boboexe's flawed points, I will address yours that weren't addressed:
Whoa, whoa. During the war , I don't remember Akainu, ever fighting equally with WB. Fighting equally equally is not needing, or having other people almost constantly attacking 1 of the fighters throughout the fight. Which is completely different from what happened with pretty much all of WB's opponents during the war.
Yeah, perhaps I used the wrong context here. What I meant was we saw WB and Akainu exchange punches(giant magma fist vs quake punch). Just saying, just because Quake ability is a super AOE ability, doesn’t make you invincible instantly, like Bob was saying. Even though Akainu’s magma ability doesn’t allow him to tilt an island and the ocean, it still gave him the power to take WB’s quake punch, Aokiji did as well.
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Agreed Boa > Smoker, but I do say by how much is easily debatable. + how exactly has Smoker really improved, or shown improvement? Only real difference I can see was he was decently faster, probably even faster than Luffy G2. But he was always a logia, of particular difficulty even among logias, that it kind of requires him to use the jutte, + seastone tricks to really fight in the 1st place, whom Luffy never could "touch/ hit/ hurt" to really fight. How much improvement in him could really be seen during the war?
Hi Five there bro. I don’t get how he saw Smoker = Boa or even close. Luffy himself said that Smoker had improved, and as you said, we can see his speed clearly has improved, as in Alabasta he struggled to keep up with a running Luffy, where’s now G2 isn’t really a problem for him. Other than that, we don’t know much, other than he pawned Luffy as easily at the war as he did at Logue town. So I guess it’s fair that they had similar levels of improvement.
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Not only that but it still seemed like only his decent 1st time dealing with haki, at a time when Boa was supposedly truly mad @ Smoker for harming Luffy, that was all she could do to him. When she thinks Luffy has offered marriage, the lady practically has vivid waking fantasies, yet when she's angry, she's just not really angry enough to really try to hurt or kill? I could see if you were saying that she was angry but didn't want to give away her true loyalties to Luffy , and still appear loyal to the Marines, except she was attacking Marines + Smoker in the 1st place; there was no reason to "hold back"? Yes she managed to stop Smoker from chasing Luffy, but for some1 who should be way above Smoker in an even remotely decent position among Shichibukai, should that really be that big of an accomplishment? We see killing doesn't seem like it particularly "bothers her" per se, so wouldn't it make sense instead of simply fighting or stopping Smoker, in her anger/ rage, she would just kill him so the Marines never really learn of her betrayal of them, from him? Unless she just simply wasn't strong enough + just couldn't....
I don’t believe I said Boa held back. What I meant is that Smoker is an elite marine. You guys are expecting him to crawl on the ground and cough blood like some fodder marines after being kicked by a haki user. I’m just saying that’s no right. Besides, even if Haki allows you to hit a logia, that logia ability would still absorb some of the damage. I mean look at Aokiji, he was elbowed in the face by Jaws, like being hit by a high speed train in the face. All he had was a bit of blood trickling down his lip. High speed elbow vs a kick in the back, what hurts more?
As for Boa, sure she was angry, but as you guys said, she’s very emotionally influenced. In rage, she’s prob more like in berserk mode, much like how the PX started shooting beams randomly when it’s brains got fried. Sanji said something like “The fight is lost when you loose your cool” or something like that. I guess it’s the same. Boa would have just been thinking of getting Smoker off Luffy. If not she could prob have aimed for the face or balls, who knows. Kicking maybe her style, but then swinging a sword is Zoro and Mihawks style, yet they got techniques above the normal swinging. And that’s what I meant by it not being her best move.
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Now I have theorized that logias even get/ have a bit of an overdeveloped healing factor even from haki hits/ strikes, but if the hit/ strike is strong or powerful enough, it should be enough to decently hurt people or even as you mention^ bruise or make them bleed , especially those seen as less that Boa by leagues of difference, + especially those that you see as her sovereign haki somehow giving an advantage to, right?
You asked:
But yeah, we've seen enough of her style of fighting to know, that she basically tries to turn enemies to stone from a distance. Barring she can't do that, she'll use basically a more "elegant up-close-leg-brawlers style" to also turn people to stone and rip them to pieces and hurt them. Barring she can't do that, (which apparently she couldn't for some reason do against Smoker), then haki enhanced kicks are pretty much all that's left to her. So yeah, I would see that kick as 1 of the strongest attacks she had available to attack Smoker with. Technically that "kicking-while-turning-body-parts--to-stone-and-then-kicking-those-parts-away- possibly- haki-enhanced" would be strongest, but that wasn't apparently available to her. Not counting those, what exactly, do you think is her strongest attack, for some1 of decent strength to resist most of her usual abilities?
Just saying from what we've been shown of Boa, she's stronger than Smoker, but not nearly in the running for anywhere near strongest Shichibukai , + technically can be seen as relatively closest to Moria in ability of the Shichibukai.
As above.
But yeah, I’m not saying she’s the strongest Shichibukai. But she’ll be in there with Kuma and Jimbei. As I said, she’s at least as strong as current Luffy, and he looks like he could take Jimbei.
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In manga, stories, movies, + television, it's actually quite common for scientists not necessarily smart enough to come up with technology way beyond even their understanding, and ends up shocking them with what their capable of. Hell, to this day, Dr gero never seemed smart enough to create Cell in the 1st place.
As for his metal, + if it's the same, you don't know either way, do you? Cars before were made of very dense heavy metal, yet cars nowadays are made of lighter metals and it's considered "progress", even though that light type of metals and "even better mass produced" more eco-friendly materials actually provides that car accidents are even more deadly to those within and without the car. my point being, sometimes the proto-type can better, than the end results in unforeseen ways, + with Kuma being as different as he was in the st place, he is still obviously superior to the rest anyway. Not to mention if Dr. Vegapunk really is evenly decently intelligent, he would still put more effort into making Kuma stand above the PX's, not to mention the upgraded 1's Sentoumaru mentioned.
You said, during those 2 years he never got upgraded, but isn't it feasible that PX's, or even beings, or groups, as strong or stronger than PX's were sent to get that ship? Yet he stopped them all possibly for times non-stop time for some sort of break between attacks. You really don't think he deserves credit for that, in being above pretty much any PX? And now he can have updates. You don't think he got them? In fact, these upgraded PX's, have you ever thought the way they updated them was with more creative thinking, + reasoning, possibly something resembling anger, ( for added power), + strategy? Meaning when Kuma gets such updates, he could be as or even more dangerous than he was before, as well. CM, you seem to act like if Kuma didn't or doesn't get updated right away, he could never be possible of competing with other Shichibukai, when simply that isn't true.
The thing your ignoring here is that Kuma is the original. With Dr Gero, don’t’ forget that he had 20 prototypes before he created Cell. Eco friendly doesn’t really apply to war mongering pacisifistas. Although I’ll give you that, about Kuma possibly being made from better materials.
Kuma managed to protect the ship, but don’t forget that he had a slightly newer ai compared to the other PX’s as he got it put in after them. He also has the paw paw fruit, which gives him an advantage over the regular PXs. Had Kuma kept his personality, do you seriously think he would have suffered that much damage? He would have either dodged all those attacks, or just sent the PX’s flying before they could charge up their lazers. That fact that he was so damaged just makes it seem all the more likely. Don’t forget that the people who were after the boat were mainly just the people smugglers and the PXs. Had the marines been serious, do you think a robo Kuma would have held up against any admiral or even VA?
And I never said that Kuma wouldn’t be upgraded straight away, after all he was up for repairs anyway. I’m just saying that we know nothing of the upgrades. And Kuma pre upgrade clearly isn’t up to the standard (without his personality) that your guys are placing on him.
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You keep mentioning this but, When was it said that Mihawk sparred with WB? or even in his prime?
While it’s never mentioned that they spared with him in his prime, it’s easily assumed because this was during Rogers age, or a bit after (as it was before Shanks lost his arm). WB said so himself, that he still recalls battling Shanks and Mihawk as if it was yesterday, when Shanks came to tell him to call Ace off pursuing BB. This was at least during the time when WB hadn’t fallen to his illness. Oh and the point of the argument was that Shanks, Rayleigh and Mihawk have experience dealing with the quake fruit. Thus just because BB has the quake and darkness abilities, it doesn’t make him instant god.
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I would say there was definite "doubt" as to whether at that time Smoker was RA level or not. And yes he is assuming, yet for some1 who hasn't been shown to really be hit that much before except using water, so this instance should have caught him completely offguard, + you guys say that Boa's haki is expert level, + "the supposed advantage sovereign haki is supposed to add to normal attacks, (yet has never been shown or said to add anything to quality or power either way), + @ a time when Boa was supposedly enraged; then why wouldn't 1 expect boa's attack to harm him at least enough to be seen/ shown/ illustrated/ mentioned?
Huh? Smoker > Luffy who’s arguably > X Drake who was a former RA. So Smoker isn’t of RA level? You gotta explain this one to me.
And where is it that says Smoker is vulnerable to water?
I’ve explained the Boa part quite a bit, go read above. Just because you kick someone in the back, doesn’t make them instant cough blood. Luffy got kicked by Kizaru several times, at the speed of light too, we’ve seen him getting back up not much bloodier than he already was.
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You seem to be making a lot of assumptions/ opinions, and stating them as fact here. Who said, that attack wasn't them fighting seriously on the Moby? Who says Shanks supposed real abilities could "surpass this easily"? Get that you're trying to make your point, + you might respond to this but I also know you can't show any proof to the above statements, so why say them as facts. They really mean nothing, or add anything to your point though.
I’m making assumptions, educated guesses based on what has been shown to us. And as you can see above, I’ve given plenty of reason to why they are true. Shanks and WB going all out on the boat? Sure, that’s why neither of their crew were worries. Marco and Jaws were just like “dw, just seems like negotiations have broken down is all, don’t have to worry” Does that seem like a serious attack with killing intent to you? Even if it was serious, then that was WB’s serious attack and at near full strength (he had no injures, unlike at the war). That was his swing with both arms and Shanks stopped it with one arm. Considering how WB pawned Akainu, you seriously think Shanks is over rated? This is using your own assumption that WB was serious with that two arm swing of his.
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It's amazing how sometimes people see Iva as this complete joke basically whose direct, or indirect training could not have pushed Sanji to be anywhere near Zolo's level 2 years later, yet now she's more than enough for Kuma apparently. Also interesting that all of a sudden Kuma "needed" to dodge Zolo even though Zolo hit him and all it did was cut through his clothes, + if it even did, all it did was barely scratch the metal. This is really interesting how "Iva Pawned Kuma"? If the definition for pawning/thrashed is just to take attacks, not actually definitely have those attacks hurt or beat the person, everybody in the war was completely pawned by everybody else anyway. Hell WB was "pawned" by some no name marines who stabbed and shot him alot? Hell the Admirals never seemed to go a battle without getting "pawned/ thrashed" according to that definition? Then BB, and then BB's crew "pawned" WB, somehow? But before that Kuma "pawned Iva right back with all those constant laser beam explosions.
1. I never said anything about Iva’s training, lets get that straight.
2. I wouldn’t put Kuma on the same level as Mihawk. That I have stated earlier on.
3. Kuma tried to attack Iva, but instead received a beating and was sent flying, unable to retaliate. How does that compare to Admirals not doing anything in battle? Kuma attacked Iva, and Ivankov initially didn’t want to fight back because he still considered Kuma an ally. After that, Kuma couldn’t even touch Ivankov, if that’s not pawned, then what is? Please be logical.
