My point is exactly that; Obito is STILL wearing SpiralZetsu as a separate entity, borrowing it's power. Obviously this does not continue; does Spiral Zetsu die, get discarded, or merge with Obito to alter his personality, boost his intelligence, and increase his strength? My guess is the latter still happens at some point; perhaps he can merge with the Hashirama portion of Obito's body, similar to how Juugo's skin could meld into Sasuke.
Originally Posted by Zero
It's interesting that Madara was Edo'd in his youth; my theory is that whatever Kabuto/Orochimaru did to augment his Hashirama powers also affected Madara's age / physical state. Hashirama's power is basically raw Life Force (life itself), which is why merely his flesh can grow into a massive, body-bearing plant (directed by Madara's Will, of course).
Madara's Rinnegan, having been awakened legitimately, can revert to any level of Sharingan, or even turn its Sharingan off altogether. There's no mystery to it; if he awakened the Rinnegan, he can use it when he sees fit (is that a pun?).
EDIT: Anyone else think that only the Uchiha could get away with those haircuts, because they can see chakra through the hair anyway?
DOUBLE EDIT: My apologies to Zero, upon reading the Mangastream version (my third reading of the chapter), I finally realized it was in fact Spiral Zetsu speaking to Nagato. I edited my above post to delete the part where I doubted whether it was confirmed that Spiral Zetsu spoke.
[QUOTE=Lakritze;1062628]I hate to be Johnny Raincloud here, but this is getting rediculous.
Of course, a genius like Kishi is able to make the storyline work. But as far as I am concerned, he hasn't just been pushing it, he really sent it over the edge.
[*] Obito's character-change was triggered by the death of a class-mate. They were not married, they had no children, they didn't even kiss. If it were so easy, I should also be trying to make the moon catch you all in a dream... I know, I know, Kakashi killed poor Rin, and Obito was right on time to witness exactly that. But that doesn't make it any better.
In the same way that Sakura still loves sasgay even though they never kissed blah blah... in this world emotions are clearly enhanced beyond their usual state.. just take it as it is man
great post, but Im still unconvinced. Minato, as everyone else, was thought allmost all his jutsus by another shinobi. The very reason he developed the Thunder God is bcs Kushina thought him Uzumaki sealing jutsus. Rasengan was an incomplete jutsu, but it does show that Minato is not an ordinary shinobi. Minato is very smart, that is true but smarts arent everything. Kakashi is arguably close to Minatos level of smarts (he created his own jutsu as well) and he did have problems with a lot of foes. The most important thing is to have all-round abbilites combining smarts with power and ninja skills.
I dont see how Obito could be matched to Minatos intelect, definetaly not his younger self. However, the Tobi we knew before his big reveal was regarded as very inteligent manipulator behind the scenes. Then we found out he is Obito and all of a sudden people dont think Tobi is that good. Our first impression of Tobi prior to his reveal was that he is the master villian, after the reveal all that got replaced by our impressions of Obito and thats why people immedietly started doubting Tobi.
Its true that Obito had a lot of help that shaped him up into a powerhouse, but tell me who didnt ? As far as I know, only Rikudou Sage thought everything himself. Minato was a genius bcs he was smart and had a natural talent for ninja arts which made him learn everything very fast. I agree that Minato by virtue of character and morality is far above Obito, but it doesnt mean he is more more powerfull or more talented ninja.
Obito managed to do some incredible feats as well. He wasnt much before he activated his sharingan, but after that his growth was simply blown out of proportion. Few minutes after his arguably first ever sharingan activation, he managed to activate even the Mangekyo ! Else how could he escape the rock fall ? From then he was given Hashirama doping, this was as much a catalyst for Obitos strenght as was Kushinas Uzumaki jutsus to Minatos strenght. After some time of adjusting to his new body, Obito started using Mokuton out of the blue, he "naturally" learned by himself. Shortly after that, he activated MS by himself, he mastered all sorts of new Mokuton jutsus, mastered the top uchiha forbiden jutsus, mastered Rikudou jutsus, mastered Ying Yang jutsus, etc. Is it possible for a talentless kid to do all this ? Even having Madara as your mentor, you still need to have the smarts to comprehend what he is teaching you.
Finally the flashback people have been waiting for but its all mostly stuff we already know or figured out.
- Here is question why didn't Obito try and stick Hashirama cells in Rin to see if he could revive her.
- Why didn't Obito take his eye back from Kakashi???
- You know Madara transplanting his eyes into Nagato as boy seems quite risky....what if he was killed and had the eyes stolen.
- What I already knew but Madara indeed summoned the Jyuubi shell from the Moon.
- Obito got some training under Madara .. explains somethings
- Black Zetsu explained as expected it came from Madara's power
- Now the black chakra transmitters that come out of the statue I never expected that to be part of Madara I thought that was the Statue.
- Also I think this points out Obito may be able to obtain the Rinnegan with his real eye.
- I wonder what happened to the Zetsu armor since he switched to using a mask by the time he battled the 4th.
- I'm guesstimating but at this point in time Nagato should be about 17-18, Obito 14-15 , Minato 21-23.
@ maximo, to be honest, i never took tobi for anybody incredible. Before believing him to actually be obito I took him to be a figure of diminished power or delusional mediocrity. He tried his hand during a few power struggles but never came out on top of anything and by avoiding direct contact with many other powerful figures which would meet him in opposition, he afforded a duration long enough to see a plan through. Akatsuki was all but defeated, he couldn't prevent that. He survived by his only real natural skill, avoiding most of the trouble.
Another difference between tobi's power and minato's is the point at which they take the power they inherited and use it to grow their own. Tobi only cares to use madara's power to cheat reality. He doesn't display any sign of growth or improvement, at times caught by surprise or off guard by the likes of itachi and orochimaru, two real genuises. His actions are based upon and never getting past one moment in time. Rin's murder. Tobi only has one accomplishment, he survived long enough to succeed in some of the objectives of madara's plan, and to be considered a mild success of madara's power, as obito was all along a desperate subject in the will of greater genius.
In respect to what is considered inheteted and what is unique in their own creation we can avoid that angle entirely by asking ourselves who can better surpass the previous generation? Minato, with arguably the lesser mentor managed to surpass, on a curve, monumentally higher and build newly upon what he was given.
Obito, or tobi for that matter, managed to surpass anything on their own accord after submitting to madara. Nothing was surpassed, nothing new created, nothing new achieved, no bridging of eras surrounding his lifetime. Minato, however, did all of that.
Lastly, even after what appears to be the triumphant heralding of tobi's era of bijuu bossery, who do you think orochimaru or itachi would recognize or respect as a greater foe and genius? Tobi or minato, both are figures that orochimaru and itachi would be aware if in reputation and first hand witnessing of deeds. Again, i bet with confidence minato has more reason to cause them respect and concern.
Everytime tobi appeared to do something important something goes wrong and people end up fearing madara in name but sometimes even dismiss tobi. I think it's because tobi has nobody to love or protect and therefore has no real power. Something naruto understands as a non genius but who's actions and accomplishments have raised him in stature to minato's level and close to madara's and hashirama's, at a younger age.
As for surviving the rock fall, it was not a fluke of mangekyo as i myself previously believed but instead is a) completely a miracle and without influence of ninjutsu. b) a result of the same basis and ability madara used to change nagato's fate at a point where circumstances would otherwise mean the child's death. Those are the only :real possibilities i see because the mangekyo was shown to link it's awakening to kakashi's eye as well, which was absent before rin's murder. To top it all off, zetsu is clearly in position to reach anything buried in organic matter without effort. You can put two and two together after zetsu's own language suggesting madara "selected" obito and didn't "discover" obito after a chance accident outside his doorstep.
Mangekyo awakening is a factoring moreso of an emotional response rather than a reflection of genius or other prowess. As for the other jutsu's, he has yet to be shown to be master of anything. I bet now that we know he learned crazy jutsu's from madara his debut use of such jutsu will include signature obito goofs. There is absolutely no reason to believe he instantly became an adept pupil under madara's teachings. I predict when obito uses some of those greater powers something will go wrong. His mokuton was not mastered either, it came from in-part involuntary release in emotional contamination. The power surges are just that, power surges.
What is also irrefutable is obito has been shown to be master of nothing. Even the kamui which is his personal and signature ability, he lacks insight and understanding of it even kakashi came to see. Far cry from sage jutsu, Yin and Yang, uchiha kinjutsu, which were merely mentioned in passing through a flashback. Good thing he knew izanagi well enough to cast it successfully. His use of what he knows is disappointing and wasteful compared to what a person in his position should be capable of.
That doesn't explain his motivation behind the plan though, only that he would have no problem committing the crime. I don't doubt that he is capable of making the decision to kill the clan, what I don't understand is what was his motive for targeting them so specifically? It all made sense when we were led to believe that it was Madara behind the massacre but Obtio's only objective, from what we have seen has been to regain all he lost and prevent any future loss through the moon's eye plan. His plans, at least back then were very much simplistic and he didn't really have any good reason to target the Uchiha. It can't be a simple case of indifference because Obtio went to great lengths to insure that the clan would be destroyed utterly.
Originally Posted by Execution
My point is not that Obito is capable of horrific acts, its that his actions seem to have exceeded the tasks set out for him by Madara and don't seem to fit with his own personal agenda. Like I said, Obito showed no real interest in vengence or obtaining power for himself, the only ambition he expressed was the completion of the Moon's Eye Plan. I can see why he attacked Konoha, because he needed to acquire the Kyuubi and get Minato out of the way but going after the Uchiha clan seems relatively unrealated to his objective. In fact, the village had already begun to suspect the Uchiha of insurrection so leaving them to their own devices would have inevitably resulted in a war which probably would have helped speed up his goals. Obito even said that he put off his plans to attack Konoha because Itachi was in his way, yet based on what we have seen if Obito had just stayed away from the Uchiha Itachi may not have even found out about his plans and would have been far less of a threat.
There must be a good reason for why Obito targetted the Uchiha, why he became involved with Itachi, and most of all, why he considers Sasuke so important. Even black Zetsu seemed to be unaware of Obito's plans because he was also surprised when Itachi died, that means that Obito knew things about Itachi that he wasn't sharing with Zetsu. It seems that Obito would keep Madara's representative in the dark about any part of his plan. Could Obito be trying to double cross Madara and complete the Moon's Eye Plan without him by using Sasuke to obtain the Rinnegan? Even that seems unlikely though because Obito eventually obtained Nagato's Rinnegan and even after that he insisted on Sasuke's importance to the plan.
Honestly man I understand what you're saying. A piece of the puzzle does seem to be missing, but it's a piece that will probably be revealed when Sasuke meets "those who know everything."
Originally Posted by artifice
A couple of theories might be that one, the uchiha would eventually be needed to be wiped out since they would be the most likely to see through the "dream world" Madara wishes to create. And once one or a few might begin to see through it, they might want to break of the matrix, and break others as well.
Another reason may be to... I forgot, and I need to go. Later, lol...
No look at the Naruto world map I edited. Grass country is far away from the the Akatsuki HQ at Mt Graveyard.
Originally Posted by knife eater
Okay so we know Rin was captured and held at different location where Kakashi & Obito went to rescue her but seriously how far away was this place?
It likes 2 countries away and some how he just fell in near Madara's cave entrance???
Originally Posted by Maximo
Exactly, its not a case of Obito's genius its a case of Madara's genius. First of all, Obito isn't all that powerful in the way that most great ninja in the series are, he just has a lot of very rare abilities that make him powerful and a lot of knowledge both were given to him by Madara. Much like Nagato, Obito was an emotionally driven child when Madara dropped a ton of power in his lap. Obito was given what are probably the two strongest bloodlines and he was taught by the oldest and most experienced ninja of his time. On top of that he was given an army of white Zetsu's to gather intelligence and help him carry out his plans, he was also left with Madara's will in the form of black Zetsu to help guide his hand. He never reached the level of great geniuses like Minato and Itachi, that is why they were such a threat to him and he needed to resort to indirect methods to get them out of the way. Was able to deal with people like that because he had information, resources, and abilities that no one else had but nearly all of those were gifted to him by Madara. As you mention, we still don't know how much Obito has accomplished of his own volition as he has likely grown through his experiences but without Madara it is doubtless that he never would have been anyway near as capable as he has become.
Originally Posted by knife eater
Indeed, even Kakashi, who is renowned as the copy ninja, came up with multiple techniques of his own invention. Sofar, we haven't seen Obito use any techniques that can be identified as being of his own invention, his powers were almost all given to him or taught to him by Madara. Even with all of his gifts Obito needed to rely on tricks and the Kyuubi to bring Minato down. Another interesting thing to note is that Kabuto, who is younger than Obito and who was likewise raised by an old manipulative genius managed to outsmart him. Kabuto was also given a lot of abilities as a result of Orochimaru's experiements but he himself had a lot of intelligence of his own and he quickly rose in power to be a threat to Obito. Both Kabuto and Obito are similar in that they were reared for the sake of furthering the ambitions of their masters and both were used genetics to greatly enhance their powers. Even with those gifts though neither of them were able to match true geniuses like Minato and Itachi. Both Minato and Itachi died because they chose to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, neither were defeated in combat.
Originally Posted by knife eater
Of course that isn't to say that Obito deserves no credit at all. He has at the very least learned the value of sublety and caution. He has also learned to be effective in the arts of manipulation. He managed orchastrate the Kyuubi's attack on Konoha without revealing himself and he was effective at manipulating the Uchiha Clan, Nagato, and Sasuke. Even with all his gifts those plans took some cunning. Of course, we still don't know how much Madara's representative, black Zetsu has been helping, from what we have seen of him he usually only comes across as a source of information. What I find odd is how Obito could be so manipulative without realizing that Madara has been playing him this whole time. I suppose it could be justified by saying that he simply believes what he is preaching but it seems odd that he seems to have grown in many ways but his simplistic feelings about Rin still seem to be the driving force it his life. It seems silly for his entire existance to have been governed by the death of a childhood crush. Although, I suppose it could be argued that he is also being driven by the greater idea of a world without loss, without losers and victims, something he has always related to.
especially now that both eyes are close by, all it would require is some more emotional upset (maybe Kakashi talking to Obito) and then, bam! Obito and Kakashi both get one rinnegan (that could be even more possible if, as suggested by some, Kakashi is somewhat related to the Senju bloodline).
Originally Posted by POW
great confirmations in this chap, I hope we get to see Oro and bunch soon!