The Tobi/Madara/Obito/ Theories Convo

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Originally Posted by Zero Phoenix

I'll make this simple. Who would Izuna have learned the technique from? Unless you have an answer to that you don't have much of an argument.

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He might have created it. This would work as a parallel to the Senju brothers. It would mean that both, the Younger Uchiha Brother and Younger Senju Brother, have created jutsu that had something to do with Life & Death, Transferring/Bringing the Soul and the like.

It's not like Oro learned it from anyone, he made it into an usable state from the information he gathered, why couldn't anyone else do it too ? It have already been proven to be possible, so why the heck are you calling it impossible ?

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Originally Posted by Zero

He might have created it. This would work as a parallel to the Senju brothers. It would mean that both, the Younger Uchiha Brother and Younger Senju Brother, have created jutsu that had something to do with Life & Death, Transferring/Bringing the Soul and the like.

It's not like Oro learned it from anyone, he made it into an usable state from the information he gathered, why couldn't anyone else do it too ? It have already been proven to be possible, so why the heck are you calling it impossible ?

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Your arguments are ridiculous. Tobirama created Edo Tensei while Orochimaru later perfected it. How would Izuna have learned of the technique when he was DEAD when it was created? You can't answer that. All you can do is make things up. Oh well the younger Uchiha and the older Uchiha brother may have created it. That's a BIG thing for Kishimoto to fail to mention. If you don't know how Izuna could have come to possess the technique then say it. Don't lie about it.

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Originally Posted by Zero Phoenix

Your arguments are ridiculous. Tobirama created Edo Tensei while Orochimaru later perfected it. How would Izuna have learned of the technique when he was DEAD when it was created? You can't answer that. All you can do is make things up. Oh well the younger Uchiha and the older Uchiha brother may have created it. That's a BIG thing for Kishimoto to fail to mention. If you don't know how Izuna could have come to possess the technique then say it. Don't lie about it.

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...hmmmm, could you at least try to troll in a better or at least different manner and not constantly the same ?

You said it was impossible, I explained to you that you can't call it impossible while we don't know who created it, when and why. Not to mention that it was already proven by Oro, that the jutsu can be put back together, from pieces of information.

Sorry, maybe I have written it in a way that made you misunderstand. What I meant is that it would have been parallel for Izuna, a younger brother of the Uchiha clan head (Madara), to create a jutsu that had something to do with transferring souls, life and death, just like Tobirama, a younger brother of the Senju clan head (Hashirama), has created Edo Tensei.

You said it's impossible, while I have presented you possibilities. You might say that they don't have a high probability, but calling them impossible is just unwise.

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Originally Posted by Zero

...hmmmm, could you at least try to troll in a better or at least different manner and not constantly the same ?

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If I'm asking you the same questions it's because you HAVEN'T answered them.

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Originally Posted by Zero

...You said it was impossible, I explained to you that you can't call it impossible while we don't know who created it, when and why. Not to mention that it was already proven by Oro, that the jutsu can be put back together, from pieces of information.

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All you can do is argue possibilities. No one cares. If possibilities actually counted for something in a debate then we could discuss anything without showing proof. It's possible Konohamaru is the man behind the mask, it's possible Orochimaru is actually a nice guy, it's possible that Naruto is going to betray the world and rule like a corrupt god. Everything is possible which is why we only argue those things which can be backed by evidence. You have NONE. You don't have ONE piece of evidence to back up these ridiculous arguments you've been making. You don't have anything, not one thing you aren't making up. Izuna died before Tobirama created the Edo Tensei. Izuna could not have known of this technique. To deny these facts means you're either delusional or a liar. You don't know what you're talking about you never did, so stop pretending otherwise and stop calling me a troll because you can't do one thing, one simple thing in these debates and that's back up your claims with EVIDENCE. I'm asking you to do ONE thing that intelligent people don't do in these arguments and that's back your shit up with logic. I'm not asking you to do anything I haven't done and I don't expect anything from you that I don't expect from anyone else which isn't much to begin with. If I'm a troll for asking you to do the BASICS then what does that make someone like you?

LOL, do you even read what you write ? Something becomes impossible when there is a proof, evidence that it is impossible. From your point of view, it's OK to denial everything that hasn't been proven by others, especially those things that are deeply covered in mystery (thus there isn't much left beside theorizing). When I see possibilities and try to explain them, even with trends that Kishi likes (like comparing Senju and Uchiha, progressing them equally, paralleling them and the like), you simply call them impossible without any proof either. On the other hand, when there is proof, something stated in the manga that is against your "logic", I see you often dismissing them (not necessarily in this thread, bu still...).

Discussion is not about proving who is right and wrong, it's about achieving proper conclusion, through sharing yours and contemplating others words and thoughts. For someone who came to discussion forum, your mind is pretty closed to discussion itself. It seems like you haven't really come here to discuss... but let's end it at that.



Anyway, I still think that Obito and Izuna theories have the highest probability, I wouldn't be even surprised if both of them are somehow alive (like one being Tobi, while the other being the Black Zetsu - since there is only one of those and by following his demeanor (not to mention his anime voice) he seems to be way older than the White ones).

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Originally Posted by Zero

LOL, do you even read what you write ?

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I'm the only one who does. Check this out:

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Originally Posted by Zero

Something becomes impossible when there is a proof, evidence that it is impossible.

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But you're asking me if I read my posts. Ey everyone check this guy out. He made a quadruple negative. This dude is epic.

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Originally Posted by Zero

From your point of view, it's OK to denial everything that hasn't been proven by others, especially those things that are deeply covered in mystery (thus there isn't much left beside theorizing). When I see possibilities and try to explain them, even with trends that Kishi likes (like comparing Senju and Uchiha, progressing them equally, paralleling them and the like), you simply call them impossible without any proof either. On the other hand, when there is proof, something stated in the manga that is against your "logic", I see you often dismissing them (not necessarily in this thread, bu still...).

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Anything that isn't backed up by logic is simply idiotic. If I say, it's possible that Sakura is the most powerful ninja who has ever lived and that she has surpassed even Madara and Hashirama. Sure it's possible, but with no evidence to back up my argument this statement would be rather derp. All debates must be backed up with evidence that can be used to support ones argument. It's possible that Izuna learned Edo Tensei. Anything is possible. But you do not have EVIDENCE to show when/where/how he could have learned it or created it. All you have are bullshit opinions and so yes I do dismiss any argument made by anyone that doesn't have any evidence behind it.

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Originally Posted by Zero

Discussion is not about proving who is right and wrong, it's about achieving proper conclusion, through sharing yours and contemplating others words and thoughts.

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Noooooooooooooooooooooo, you're shitting me. I'm not trying to prove who's right or wrong. When you pop up in these debates it's never a question of whether or not you're wrong but how far out of the ballpark your arguments are coming from. My point to you, and by all that is good I hope you understand even this basic sentence, my point to you is that your arguments are ridiculous. Not because they're wrong as this isn't about right or wrong. Your arguments are ridiculous because you don't have any evidence any semblance of anything close to logic to account for your ideals. You are literally, and follow me here, you are literally grabbing shit out of thin air and you're getting upset with me because I don't hold your "facts" to be in any way credible. Keep up.

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Originally Posted by Zero

For someone who came to discussion forum, your mind is pretty closed to discussion itself. It seems like you haven't really come here to discuss... but let's end it at that.

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I couldn't care less about your views of me or this work as per your usual delusions, your arguments are again only supported by shit you're pulling out of thin air. Every. Single. Person. On this forum but you is at least able to pull something from the manga to support their ideas no matter how ridiculous some of them might be. You are the only person who can't even do the basics of the basics and that's CITE EVIDENCE. My god why is that so hard for you to understand? I don't care how ridiculous your arguments are IF, IF you can support them with evidence. Why can't you do that? Why? Not once in your entire life have you ever had an authentic debate and I doubt you've ever even written a paper so let me be the first to tell you, when you make a statement you have to be able to support it with data that can be tested and proven factual. Period. You are the only person outside of Bleach Asylum who thinks that something is true just because you posted it. Doesn't work that way.

I'm beginning to see a terrible pattern here lately.

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Originally Posted by MrFry

I'm beginning to see a terrible pattern here lately.

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You and me both. Three people in one day pointed out the same thing. Someone disproves a theory and are outright ignored because fanboys want to believe what they want to believe. I asked Zero the same question five times and each time he has side-stepped by ignoring it and calling me a troll, never bothering to answer my question because he got stopped cold. This is all I'm asking THIS right here: Tell me what you think and show me how you came to that conclusion. Zero can't do that.

Zero: Izuna knows Edo Tensei.

Zero Phoenix: Izuna died before Edo Tensei was created.

Zero: Doesn't matter. He knows it.

Zero Phoenix: How does he know it?

Zero: Because I said so.

Zero Phoenix: Got Derp?

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Originally Posted by Zero Phoenix

You and me both. Three people in one day pointed out the same thing. Someone disproves a theory and are outright ignored because fanboys want to believe what they want to believe. I asked Zero the same question five times and each time he has side-stepped by ignoring it and calling me a troll, never bothering to answer my question because he got stopped cold. This is all I'm asking THIS right here: Tell me what you think and show me how you came to that conclusion. Zero can't do that.

Zero: Izuna knows Edo Tensei.

Zero Phoenix: Izuna died before Edo Tensei was created.

Zero: Doesn't matter. He knows it.

Zero Phoenix: How does he know it?

Zero: Because I said so.

Zero Phoenix: Got Derp?

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I never said that Izuna knows ET, I even apologized if I have written it in a manner that made you misunderstand that:

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Originally Posted by Zero

Sorry, maybe I have written it in a way that made you misunderstand. What I meant is that it would have been parallel for Izuna, a younger brother of the Uchiha clan head (Madara), to create a jutsu that had something to do with transferring souls, life and death, just like Tobirama, a younger brother of the Senju clan head (Hashirama), has created Edo Tensei.

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So yeah, this is only "your logic". Not to mention you admitted that you don't care about others opinion about the work, so yeah, what are you doing here ?:

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Originally Posted by Zero Phoenix

I couldn't care less about your views of me or this work

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It's alright if you don't care about my/others view of you, but if you don't care what I/others have to say about this manga, then why are you even discussing it with other people ?

I only stated that Oro found pieces of information about the Soul Transfer jutsu within Konoha and put it back together to an usable state (you can prove me wrong if you like, it was a long while ago, so I might have remembered it wrong, but you never denied this statement anyway). Everything else I said it could, or might have been that way. At this point with the information we have, we can't do much more than theorize about it.



Without Zetsu (that could have been created only after battle at the Vote), it would be hard to fake Izuna's death. Without any special MS Genjutsu, it would hard for Madara to fool every clan member with a normal Sharingan, or any other genjutsu. It's highly probable that Izuna in fact died, especially that Madara even mentions this to Tsunade:

Spoiler!

http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/8/60-...essed/f007.jpg

For Tobi to be Izuna, Rinnegan's Reincarnation jutsu would have to be used, unless Izuna used some kind of Soul Transfer Jutsu, that simply left his body soulless and thus dead.

The Black Zetsu could very well be made of Izuna's body, seeing as he seems to be way older than the white ones (by his demeanour, anime voice, knowledge of the plan, etc.) and that there is only one Black Zetsu. It would make sense for Madara to first test how the fusion between Uchiha & Senju works out. The very way how Black Zetsu can record fights, conversation and the likes, might mean that he doesn't have a normal eye, but something made with technology and supposedly Izuna died eyeless (because Madara's eye didn't work for him and it seems like any other wouldn't for a long run as well, because of the degradation effect).

Of course, the above about Black Zetsu, could very well fit for Obito as well. If his remaining eye was plugged out, then he too would become eyeless, what's more the Black Zetsu has a metal plate on his face, which could have been pretty damaged by the falling rocks (in Obito's case). Not to mention, in the flashbacks about Tobi, we don't even see the Black Zetsu in any of it.

I'll say this one more time and I'll use examples. This is your argument:

"Sorry, maybe I have written it in a way that made you misunderstand. What I meant is that it would have been parallel for Izuna, a younger brother of the Uchiha clan head (Madara), to create a jutsu that had something to do with transferring souls, life and death, just like Tobirama, a younger brother of the Senju clan head (Hashirama), has created Edo Tensei."

K. My question to you is, what is present in the manga THE MANGA that tells us that Madara and Izuna created jutsu, researched jutsu, and so forth? You argue a gotdamn possibility, a possibility that there is a parallel between the Uchiha brothers and the Sages two sons. I'm asking you, for the Xth time, what is present in the manga that shows evidence of a parallel between the Uchiha brothers and Rikudou's two sons.