well, i see what u mean but the facts are facts. pre-konoha the uchiha clan, under madara and his brother, fought many wars with other clans and won. Because of the many wars fought he got the title of "strongest ninja in the world", yes by hear say, but this would also apply to 4th and the order from rock (and rock only) to flee on sight of him, hear say. Which hear say is more impressive... Strongest ninja in the world or flee on sight (only on 1 country)? besides, although they have radios they use birds and gossip to collect info so hear say is the true source of information.
Shodaime kekkei genkai to forcefully repel or contain or control bijuu's chakra would had only allowed to cancel the kyuubi on a fight... after that it was 1 on 1 and he won, so is not that his kekkei genkai won his battle... it was more like his kekkei genkai made his battle basicly fair. this is the kind of info I base when I make my opinions, some might agree with me some wont but I cant just say, "oh, the 4th can beat anything and everthing in narutoverse since all I have seen him due is pop out of the seals he puts on the enemies and create jutsus!!"
in my post I also put info about the ages and as how Sarutobi wasn't that old when Minato became Yondaime. Don't forget that those jutsu's he created are among the most powerful and deadliest in Narutoverse and that he could fight armies by himself just like that. The rock country was AFRAID of one single ninja to appear in battle, not of a clan. The man who was called the best of his village, whom sealed the Kyuubi, whom won Konoha's war, developed amazing jutsu's. I think it's a bit underestimating not to think he is the best. Don't forget that the best overall most times win against any other by the simple fact that he has more versatility and can fight more types of opponents.
Shodaime fought Madara and defeated him. For all we know Madara could have just entered with Kyuubi thinking he would win easily and Shodaime used it against him defeating him. That ability of him was what Enabled him to become Hokage in first place as Yamato says so you could consider this deeply enough and see any number of scenarios where Madara, whom at that time must have been getting larger with arrogance, lost due to underestimating and not exactly lack of ability.
true. But like I said, with the info given till now. Rasengan A class jutsu, chidori (invented by kakashi at 12) A class jutsu. kakashi is a genius in his own right but because he invented a jutsu doesnt mean he can beat everyone. 4th made a seal that can contain the kyuubi, Nagato aka Pain created a jutsu that can contain 9, hell Oro must have created many more but that didnt make him stronger than 4th or Itachi.... see what I mean? Yes, the 4th did some amazing things BUT those thing come short UNTIL THE MOMENT because of the info given to us about Madara and 1st. I mean the way I rated them on my list btw.
True that the jutsu's aren't that exclusive accomplishment but Oro had >50 years to do them and probably Pain had a lot of time plus the Rinnegan (which seems to give you some pretty messed up things just look at the summons and now think about ninjutsu) but I also think that Yondaime must've been at least at Sarutobi's level when he become Yondaime and Sarutobi was about 50 so couldn't be that much past his prime and the whole thing about Overall which people also seem to underestimate.
Still have my last point about what can we decide about shodaime fighting abilities. If Oro's Sho and Ni are as powerful as the original they weren't THAT godlike as even Sarutobi and just cuz he defeated Madara doesn't mean he was better than him or even equal. Hell Madara could've tripped while laughing at Shodaime's pathetic powers, hit with the head and been knocked out for all we know (jk). But I mean that there are a lot of factors outside the fighting ability that could have led to shodaime's victory:
Good match up;
Imagine the situation: Madara is known as the best ninja and is so swelled in pride that he arrogantly dismisses Shodaime as a 'minor threat' (do note that even Sasuke thinks of his clan as gods among humans). Shodaime prepares himself for the battle cuz he knows the enemy is great. Madara comes and Shodaime fends off his attacks and hits him a couple of times. Madara gets super irritated and decides to teach him a lesson and summons Kyuubi. Shodaime was expecting the Kyuubi and plays his trump card that turn Madara's most powerful strike against himself at the same time Madara is to surprised to respond and Shodaime quickly takes advantage and defeats him.
Shodaime was smarter but not necessarily stronger than Madara. Madara wasn't weaker but still lost cuz he couldn't keep his emotion controlled. Shodaime was a better ninja cuz he found a way to defeat an opponent whom outclassed him but it doesn't make him necessarily more powerful than Madara.
I think its kinda pointless worrying about who is/was the strongest ninja
Thankfully Kishi didn't make it as simple as all that
I would say its more of a Rock-Paper-Scissors thing or a Snake-Toad-Slug thing if you prefer.
Kinda like Jiraiya>Itachi / Itachi>Orchimaru / Orochimaru>Jiraiya
- Though not a hard and fast rule and some may argue with my example - nontheless you get my point.
@ Lumiac wasn't Kakashi's development of Chidori actually a failure - as much of a danger to himself as his enemies.
- It wasn't until he got Obito's eye that he was able to control it properly.
I mean if that hadn't happened the Chidori would probably have been considered a failed jutsu.
-I think its pointless to make lists on a show like this. Its not like Dragonball Z where everyone has an exact power level that determines whos stronger or weaker.
-Its not just about who has the most chakra or justsu's which is 1 of the reasons I like Naruto. Even a powerful charcter can be beaten by someone weaker with a superior strategy.
-So the point of making lists is meaningless and as Naruto would say the outcome of a fight is not determined until its over!
Naruto won against Gaara even when most would not argue that Gaara is clearly more skilled.
As we know ITachi already said, "MANDARA IS NOT STRONG!'. that should clear up most of ur confusion.
Originally Posted by icedout921
as for the 3rd and 4th, they were the strongest shunobi of their time. no questions against that.