Tobi vs Madara

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Originally Posted by Rlinfamous

We need to know how Madara died, Who Tobi is, Why Tobi is doing what he's doing, and what the two of them intended to do when Madara was revived. We will also learn how Madara survived his battle with Hashirama, What Tobi/Madara's relation to Nagato is, and Who Zetsu is. Finally, these revelations will explain what Kabuto intended to do with Edo Madara,Why this blackmails Tobi, and What technique Kabuto is keeping up his sleeve in addition to Edo Madara (which gave him confidence to win out even over Tobi's Rinnegan/Sharingan combo).

Hopefully we also learn what Itachi plans to do about Kabuto, and What Tobi's plan for Sasuke is. Ultimately, Sasuke/Itachi are the major wild cards here in the power struggle between Kabuto and Madara; we know that Kabuto and Tobi both want Sasuke alive, but Itachi is coming after Kabuto, and Sasuke is coming after everyone.

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although we dont know much, we can assume even tobi, regardless if he is a clone/split of Madara, intended to act on his own goals, and didn't want to bring back Madara. He even assumed the identity of Madara himself. There fore, it makes sense that if someone was acting as a great powerful person, and someone revealed that they were not that powerful person, they would be infuriated. Tobi's character is already a sociopath. He lied to all of the akatsuki members and fooled them into thinking they could fufill their goals.

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Originally Posted by Aga bomBa

- I had a crazy idea, back in the days.. that Madara sealed half of his soul / power into his eyes, because he knew that he couldn't own 1st. Hokage. Madara's body was never been found, meaning that TOBI is still Madara, but like Itachi said: a shell of his former self. That's why Tobi is for almost 3/4 of white- zetzu ( his body WAS heavily damaged ) and lived for so long, because A: madara was born with having the strongest chakra of his clan and B: White-zetzu is a chakra source.

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I think you got it when you say Tobi is still Madara. This explains why Madara is sticking to the fact that he's been saying he's Madara. Itachi knowing that he is Madara. Being able to operate the sharingan.

Why Madara lost against the First Hokage ? For the Rinnegan, so that he could wield it and use it later.
It seems Edo-Madara knew about Nagato. But Nagato was 20 ish years old when he died. Madara die more than 30 years before the Fourth Ninja War. So something is not adding up.

I think Tobi is DEAD. That's why Kakshi's MS doesn't work. That's why Amaterasu doesn't work. That's why the Rasengan by the Fourth doesn't work.

Tobi is literally a corpse but one whithout power. Where as Edo-Madara is a revived young Madara. i think Tobi wanted to revive himself using Rinnegan or Nagato. This would explain why Edo-Madara mentions Nagato.

However Edo Madara is under the control of Kabuto. Tobi did not want that to happen. I think Tobi wanted to revive himself and then use Tobi for some other purposes, maybe even merge with the possible revived Madara by Rinnegan. But now, I think it's too late. So Tobi is turning his attention towards his ultimate goal.

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Originally Posted by mo916

although we dont know much, we can assume even tobi, regardless if he is a clone/split of Madara, intended to act on his own goals, and didn't want to bring back Madara. He even assumed the identity of Madara himself. There fore, it makes sense that if someone was acting as a great powerful person, and someone revealed that they were not that powerful person, they would be infuriated. Tobi's character is already a sociopath. He lied to all of the akatsuki members and fooled them into thinking they could fufill their goals.

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I'm still not sure... he's stated that he'd hoped to use Nagato's Rinne Tensei for himself. Maybe it's not Madara coming back that he's afraid of, but simply the fact that Kabuto revived Madara first.

Likewise, Madara seems to have expected to be brought back by Nagato. That suggests that he had everything planned out, and was aware that Nagato was developing the Rinnegan.

Madaras soul resided in the pure world aka the afterlife, so Tobi is more than just a clone. Tobi IS MADARA; he has half the soul of the original so hes just as much Madara as the original is. The only difference is Tobi-Madara knows everything the original knows PLUS everything that happened after the original died.

Tobi cannot be Izuna, since he specifically stated that he wanted Rinne Tensei to be used on himself, he didnt say he wanted it to be used on "Madara."

With all evidence, I'm going to theorize that Madara split his soul in two, and put 1/2 in a zetsu clone.

We know that the original Madara died during Nagatos childhood so basically some time during the second ninja war. I think in some way he expected his death cause otherwise why else would he split his soul. One thing is for sure tho, he didnt die at the hands of hashirama.

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Originally Posted by EliteKage

Madaras soul resided in the pure world aka the afterlife, so Tobi is more than just a clone. Tobi IS MADARA; he has half the soul of the original so hes just as much Madara as the original is. The only difference is Tobi-Madara knows everything the original knows PLUS everything that happened after the original died.

Tobi cannot be Izuna, since he specifically stated that he wanted Rinne Tensei to be used on himself, he didnt say he wanted it to be used on "Madara."

With all evidence, I'm going to theorize that Madara split his soul in two, and put 1/2 in a zetsu clone.

We know that the original Madara died during Nagatos childhood so basically some time during the second ninja war. I think in some way he expected his death cause otherwise why else would he split his soul. One thing is for sure tho, he didnt die at the hands of hashirama.

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You are right about half the Madara power but I disagree with the zetsu clone for the most part. See, the reason why the manga has paid special attention to Muu is that he is an illustrational counterpart to Madara. A beast of a kage, shrouded (as opposed to masked, BOTH ARE SEEN BANDAGED AS HELL), is split in battle (with a representational sibling, the younger tsuchikage who he knew, similar to uchiha+senju=siblings), BOTH are muu, one is defeated, fooling all who saw ala Madara vs Hashirama. It is revealed that the technique splits the power in half. This is why Tobi's ocular prowess is seemingly limited. We have reasons why he has not used MS but in this split theory we have bases covered for why we have 1 eye from the Madara/Izuna ems set in Tobi (see my other posts) but no real power to drive it to it's full potential. The zetsu stuff came later and we do not know the full extent of Tobi's "zetsuness" but the indications from fragments of face to the mizukage's supposed appearance is that it is a human face, not "plantish human". Zetsu is a part of the plan but not some mere clone or recepticle for Madara's soul. Zetsu is the physical enablement of Madara to have Hashirama's power.

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Originally Posted by Rlinfamous

We need to know how Madara died, Who Tobi is, Why Tobi is doing what he's doing, and what the two of them intended to do when Madara was revived. We will also learn how Madara survived his battle with Hashirama, What Tobi/Madara's relation to Nagato is, and Who Zetsu is.

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http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-...apter-510.html I present you this scene to begin the answers. One half Madara died to afford the other half Madara the decades/centuries needed for their crazy plan, which includes obviously now the coming up of Nagato (Uzumaki & Uchiha Madara/Izuna bred as I read somewhere here earlier) to resurrect the dead half Madara. Madara needed to be believed dead first to remove the immediate threat of Hashirama's opposition to his plans, and second the senju determination that runs contrary to his own. Run with that and you will start to have less questions and more answers.

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Originally Posted by knife eater

You are right about half the Madara power but I disagree with the zetsu clone for the most part. See, the reason why the manga has paid special attention to Muu is that he is an illustrational counterpart to Madara. A beast of a kage, shrouded (as opposed to masked, BOTH ARE SEEN BANDAGED AS HELL), is split in battle (with a representational sibling, the younger tsuchikage who he knew, similar to uchiha+senju=siblings), BOTH are muu, one is defeated, fooling all who saw ala Madara vs Hashirama. It is revealed that the technique splits the power in half. This is why Tobi's ocular prowess is seemingly limited. We have reasons why he has not used MS but in this split theory we have bases covered for why we have 1 eye from the Madara/Izuna ems set in Tobi (see my other posts) but no real power to drive it to it's full potential. The zetsu stuff came later and we do not know the full extent of Tobi's "zetsuness" but the indications from fragments of face to the mizukage's supposed appearance is that it is a human face, not "plantish human". Zetsu is a part of the plan but not some mere clone or recepticle for Madara's soul. Zetsu is the physical enablement of Madara to have Hashirama's power.



http://www.mangareader.net/93-57473-...apter-510.html I present you this scene to begin the answers. One half Madara died to afford the other half Madara the decades/centuries needed for their crazy plan, which includes obviously now the coming up of Nagato (Uzumaki & Uchiha Madara/Izuna bred as I read somewhere here earlier) to resurrect the dead half Madara. Madara needed to be believed dead first to remove the immediate threat of Hashirama's opposition to his plans, and second the senju determination that runs contrary to his own. Run with that and you will start to have less questions and more answers.

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Well like you said, Madara certainly does have zetsuness as of now. Evidence is the way he was able to rip off his arm then replace it with some zetsu material. Theres also the fact that zetsu being incorporated into his body is how he has hashiramas powers. If you're saying that originally Madara just split in two, then later the tobi half incorporated zetsu into his body, then I'd agree with you it seems plausible.

Hashirama was never any threat to Madara, even the original Madara lived to see Nagato as a child, so both halves lived far longer than Hashirama did. Neither 1/2 of Madara died during the battle the Hashirama. All we know is that 1/2 of Madara died during Nagatos childhood aka around the second ninja war.

I think the real question is who was powerful enough during nagatos childhood to have to force Madara to split himself in half?

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Originally Posted by EliteKage

Well like you said, Madara certainly does have zetsuness as of now. Evidence is the way he was able to rip off his arm then replace it with some zetsu material. Theres also the fact that zetsu being incorporated into his body is how he has hashiramas powers. If you're saying that originally Madara just split in two, then later the tobi half incorporated zetsu into his body, then I'd agree with you it seems plausible.

Hashirama was never any threat to Madara, even the original Madara lived to see Nagato as a child, so both halves lived far longer than Hashirama did. Neither 1/2 of Madara died during the battle the Hashirama. All we know is that 1/2 of Madara died during Nagatos childhood aka around the second ninja war.

I think the real question is who was powerful enough during nagatos childhood to have to force Madara to split himself in half?

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We don't know that half of Madara died and the other half lived, because we don't know if there exist more than one Madara. Stating facts is a good thing when their facts, if they aren't don't claim that they are.

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Originally Posted by paulbee

Why can't Tobi be a Zetsu Clone of Madara, charged with Using the Rinnegan to Revive the Original. As we see, Zetsu clones have all the abilities of the original., and it would be a simple matter for Madara to imbue the clone with his mental energies.

I just have a huge problem with pulling Izuna's name out of literaly nowhere for this purpose, when there are other viable hints.

Tobi claims to be Madara...Why would Izuna do that?
Itachi Identifies him to be Madara
Minato identifies him as Madara

As a Zetsu Clone (which he is at least partially is, he could be Madara, and still want to Revive through Rinne Tensei, the original.
Finally, Remember how Tobis answered Kakashi's question to him about what are his goals? He said he wanted to be complete. The Zetsu Clone partial Madara wants to be made whole by reviving and reuniting (physically?) with the Original, using the Rinnegan.

I think this is the most direct answer so far, until Kishi throws in another curve.

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If a zetsu clone is really Tobi then one thin doesn't make sense to me. Remember after Itachi and sasuke's fight when Zetsu (The black and white one) came to report to Tobidara that the fight was over and they had to go there, Zetsu was complaining about how he couldn't keep up with Tobidara's speed. If he was just a zetsu clone why is it that one zetsu will find it hard to keep up with the other. I say Tobidara is anything but a zetsu clone. I don't like the Izuna idea but I will prefer that to be a plausible explanation than him being a Zetsu clone but if I had to guess I will say he is a split of the original Madara himself.

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Originally Posted by Gaara Kazekage

We don't know that half of Madara died and the other half lived, because we don't know if there exist more than one Madara. Stating facts is a good thing when their facts, if they aren't don't claim that they are.

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I never said they're facts. We're all theorizing here obviously no one has the facts except Kishi.

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Originally Posted by Don.D.Bulky

If a zetsu clone is really Tobi then one thin doesn't make sense to me. Remember after Itachi and sasuke's fight when Zetsu (The black and white one) came to report to Tobidara that the fight was over and they had to go there, Zetsu was complaining about how he couldn't keep up with Tobidara's speed. If he was just a zetsu clone why is it that one zetsu will find it hard to keep up with the other. I say Tobidara is anything but a zetsu clone. I don't like the Izuna idea but I will prefer that to be a plausible explanation than him being a Zetsu clone but if I had to guess I will say he is a split of the original Madara himself.

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Tobidara could be A Zetsu clone with Madara's Chakra and a pair of Sharingans that could warp around would be faster than any regular clone.

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What if Madara died by putting whatever was left of his chakra into Nagato, in order to supply the Spiritual energy needed to create the Rinnegan. Madara died from Chakra exhaustion.