Hashirama Senju's death
I just want to know what people think did in the one known as a god amongst shinobi. Obviously he died at a young age because when Tobirama became the 2nd he still looked pretty young. So my question is did Hashirama die and if so how, or did he decide to go on like a pilgrimage after he killed his best friend and left the village in his brothers hands. We know Tobirama died during one of the great wars and left the village to the 3rd. But I am very curious as to what happened to Hashirama because he still looks to be at a very young age with the Edo Tensai (which we know brings you back to the point of where you died, if not then why wouldn't the 3rd be made young again too?)
edit: I completely forgot about Madara being made young and his body changed so the 1st could of been made young again too
I am not sure if there has been a topic on this, if so go ahead and delete this thread mods
Seeing as at the time of killing his best friend with shining eyes, Hashirama declared that he will do anything, even kill his own siblings and children (perhaps that's actually how the Senju clan mostly died, kukukuku, probably not :P), in order to protect the village, I doubt that he would left it unattended.
Seeing as at WNW1 Tobirama is the Hokage (in the middle of which he already declared who is going to be the 3rd Hokage), he was already dead then (probably), perhaps died at the beginning or before the war for some reason (perhaps one of Madara's MS jutsu simply took such a long time to activate ? After all if Shisui's jutsu needed a decade to cool down/recharge, Madara's might also be restricted by time but in another way).
Let's not forget that Naruto's timeline is a bit broken, but if we would take POW's timeline into consideration, then Hashirama actually would have outlived Tobirama, since Hashirama did met his own granddaughter, while Tobirama not necessarily, which also seems to be after the WNW1.
Basing on other power-f*cking-inkillabe-horses (like the 3rd Raikage), chakra exhaustion seems like one of the most likely possibilities, otherwise a Shinobi that proved to be capable of taking down Hashirama would have been extremely famous and we haven't heard of any such human.
Good question. I think that his death may have something to do with the destruction of the Whirlpool village. We know that Hashirama was married to Mito Uzumaki, since the Uzumaki seem to have been the founders of the Whirlpool village, I suspect that Hashirama would have attempted to prevent its destruction. We don't know when Hashirama died but we know that Mito was still alive when Kushina was a child and the Kyuubi was passed from her to Kushina. Kushina said that the Whirlpool nation was destroyed because people feared their power and so they were inevitably destroyed. To me this sounds a lot like what happened to the Uchiha. This parallel would explain a lot of things in the story. Itachi wiped out his clan because he believed it was the only way to avoid a world war. Now he might have come to this conclusion by simply judging the situation for what it was but what if there was a precedent? We know that Itachi was very interested in the past and by studying things that other people had ignored he obtained a deep understanding that was comparable to that of a Kage. I think that Itachi had studied the Whirlpool nation and knew what had happened to it. I think that because of what he learned from that event he knew what would happen if the Uchiha went to war with Konoha.
Originally Posted by Greed-sama
Whatever, destroyed the Whirlpool village had to be incredibly powerful, since their clan was very strong, for them to have been wiped out entirely must have taken a lot. At that time Hashirama, Tobirama, and Madara were probably the 3 most powerful ninja in the world. So I would not be surprised if they were somehow involved. We know that Madara was still manipulating events behind the scenes after his apparent death. We know that he was very involved with the Hidden Mist village and the Land of Whirlpools was between the land of Fire and the Land of Water. Madara was off the grid for more than half his life and I suspect he did a lot more in that time than we have been told so far. We know that the Hidden Eddy Village was destroyed because people feared their sealing techniques but who specifically destroyed it and for what reasons remains unknown. I believe that the Village was destroyed for much the same reason the the Uchiha were destroyed, they had powers that were seen as a threat and their unique power made people suspicious of them. So far the people who seem to be best suited to controlling the Bijuu are the Uchiha, the Uzumaki and the Senju. The Senju seem to have spread midst other clans so they did not seem to be as much of a threat but the Uchiha and Uzumaki seem to have remained separated from the other clans. The Uzumaki in particular were probably even more feared than the Uchiha because they lived on an island in their own village. Madara may have also used his Sharingan to spread fear about the Whirlpool village and increased animosity towards them just like Obito helped to prompt the Uchiha massacre (after all Madara was his teacher). Eventually the council probably decided to go to war with the Uzumaki but Hashirama was probably against it, just like the 3rd was against the Uchiha Massacre. Hashirama probably attempted to broker peace but I think Madara manipulated the Uzumaki clan into a conflict with Hashirama, much the way Obito manipulated the conflict between the Uchiha and Konoha. Hashirama mentioned that Itachi was a better ninja than him, I think that Hashirama might have been put in a similar position to Itachi. I think Hashirama was forced to play both sides but unlike Itachi he couldn't pull the trigger. I think eventually the situation got so bad that a fight broke out ant the Uzumaki killed Hashirama who tried to stand in their way perhaps dieing because he refused to kill them (after all Itachi chose to kill his clan and lived) that choice ended the conflict. If Hashirama died in a similar situation it would make sense why he said that Itachi was a better ninja.
Hashirama was clearly incredibly powerful but so was Tobirama (flying thunder god, sensor, most powerful water user, and creator of Edo Tensei). We know that Tobirama was killed by 20 elite ninja so a similar force might have been able to take down Hashirama. Yet I suspect that it was actually members of the Uzumaki clan themselves who killed Hashirama, perhaps at Madara's prompting. They are the only people during that time who I can think of who would have had the power to kill Hashirama. I think after they killed Hashirama, Tobirama took charge and took a powerful group of ninja and destroyed the Whirlpool village. This may have even been the precursor to Root. We know that Tobirama was a practicle man, he made hard choices that Hashirama would not make, I think Danzo was more of a follower of Tobirama and took his views even further.
With the Whirlpool village gone and Hashirama dead, Madara had disposed of two of his biggest obstacles. He continued to stir up war hoping that it would eventually end up causing Tobirama's death as well. We know that Madara was still alive when Tobirama died so I wouldn't be surprised if he somehow set up the situation that led to Tobirama's death. I suspect that it was around this time that Madara finally awakened the Rinnegan. With its power he summoned the Heretical Demon Statue. By this point though Madara was too weak to complete his plan to resurrect the Juubi so he sought out pawns who could carry on in his absence. He gave the Rinnegan to Nagato who was an Uzumaki with the potential to master its power. Around that same time he also looked for a Uchiha who could be his double and continue his work. He chose children who were vulnerable and damaged so he could manipulate their feelings. The Whirlpool nation was gone and so was the threat of their powerful sealing techniques but his own clan, the Uchiha still had power that could threaten him if it evolved far enough. I think Obito realized this, I think that is why Obito was so obsessed with Sasuke. Obito said mulitple times that the Sharingan is needed to defeat the Sharingan. Obito knew that he could not match Madara because he didn't have the ability to awaken the Eternal Mangekyou, so he looked for someone who could obtain that power. When Obito was confronted by Itachi and learned about Sasuke he found his answer. Obito said again and again that Sasuke was his most important objective. I think Obito sees Sasuke as the only one capable of surpassing Madara now.
I mentioned it before in another thread but it seems unlikely that Hashirama died in straight up fight given his overwhelming power. It seems more likely he died protecting his allies who were at risk and may have put himself in the crossfire to protect them. The enemy may have correctly analyzed they had very little chance of beating him a in straight up fight and set up a trap.
I suspect it was some kind of poison attack given that he had the ability to heal himself without seals from regular damage.
It may be a bit of an overestimation but I always assumed it may have been the Sand villages Puppeteer masters + 1st Kazekage.
- Plus I always imagined that the Sand village in the past was one of the strongest given the fact that they only received 1 tailed beast unlike the Rock, Mist & Cloud. The point of handing out Tailed beast was to balance out the power thus it must suggest that the Sand had an incredibly strong line up of ninjas in the early days
Let's not forget that Konoha was the only of the 5 great villages that had no bijuu (until Madara himself brought one, but at that time he was no longer part of Konoha), thus their own line of ninja (with Hashirama on top), must have been that much superior (Hashirama, Tobirama and from the looks of it even Sarutobi Sasuke? were pretty much one-man armies, not to mention the aid of the Uzumaki village). Then again, it was never mentioned when were the bijuu distributed.
Originally Posted by POW
I actually wonder in what manner has Hashirama distributed the bijuu. Simply moving them to another region could hardly be considered peaceful distribution (it's more along throwing a wild beast into their house :P), thus he must have also passed them with certain sealing jutsu, perhaps even sealed in items.
Hashirama was very special and special among special people, tend to have incurable disease that only they have, that shorten their lifespans, like Kimimaro for example (let's not forget about Itachi's unnamed disease that couldn't have been caused by the eyes, since he should get blind and not dead because of them).
Incorrect originally it was Hashirama who subdued several Bijuu's and had them in his ownership. He handed them out to the other villages to balance the power and broker peace. The other villages obtained them from Hashirama who was the only one beside Madara at the time who could subdue a Bijuu without special tools.
Originally Posted by Zero
It makes sense that after obtaining the Kyuubi Hashirama would hand out the other tailed beasts as to alleviate fears of having too many super weapons. He wanted to avert a war but in the end war came anyways .....ie: the 1st Great ninja war.
I'm not so sure, after all the Cloud tried to obtain Kyubi even before it was captured by Madara. If they didn't know what to do with it (basically copying what Hashirama showed them), why would they even sacrifice people to try and get it ? Weren't they after Kyubi, because Hashirama showed how to utilize other bijuu first ? Unless the Bijuu were utilized even before the formation of the Ninja Villages (beside So6p there is no other mention of it). From the looks of it, the cloud knew about So6p and his tools, but not that he was the bijuu master.
Originally Posted by POW
Also, the Uzumaki village was tasked with the mission to protect the Jinchuriki Seal, in case Jyubi returned, thus technically they are the only ones that should know about it, for what it is and how to use it. Of course it's possible that basing on their jutsu, other countries made their own versions, which would then explain why Minato's and Naruto's seal gives different properties (because the seal they utilize is the proper sealing method that So6p himself used).
From the looks of it, the Bijuu only fight in order to protect their territories or defend themselves, thus the only reason that Cloud had to go after it was to obtain it's power, that's why at that time they should already know what to do with the sealing method, because quite likely Hashirama might have already distributed the bijuu at the time that Madara was still within the village, which could also be the reason why Konoha didn't need a bijuu at that time.
my gut feeling is that hashirama distributed the bijuu from his deathbead or distributed the bijuu after obtaining knowledge of and foreseeing his own death. before the bijuu, hashirama himself was the stabilizing force/deterrent among the emerging nations so the balance of power set by distributed bijuu would only work if hashirama were no longer alive to counter those balances. passing them out was thinking ahead and to think ahead like that he must have been aware of other grave threats besides madara himself but of the same current that drove madara. perhaps ascertaining those threats proved hashirama's doom or perhaps a high level contract with a higher sennin kingdom eventually ran its course and fatally taxed him.
one thing is for sure, i have a hard time believing any conventional ninja, even an army of thousands of high ranking ninja of that time, could have killed hashirama. he was not a sacrificial player in conventional combat, not even regarding the whirlpool.
similarly important, who the heck was hashirama's kid? tsunade had a parent that hashirama fathered, WHO WAS IT?!?! the fact the child has been mentioned less than anyone else of importance in the manga makes me suspect it may have had a tragic role in hashirama's death... as in hashirama had to sacrifice himself to save his child?! (VERY LIKELY, as this takes his death outside of a simple combat context and wraps up many statements about killing kin to protect the village in one way but superbly underscores his nature as it stands opposite of the uchiha/madara way of killing and taking from family).
hashirama died performing a chiyo like life giving technique on his own family.. his own child or a child-tsunade