Originally Posted by paulbee
Paul Madara was the first person to ever unlock the MS so besides his brother there probably where no others. Also the fact that using the MS has damaging side effects is probably why Madara doesn't spam it cause he knows it weakens him. It's reserve move only in the most desperate situation.
The fact their vision was getting worse from using wasn't a point lost on them hence why they where not able to spam it. You can only spam the EMS because there is no backlash pain and blurry vision from using it.
Madara not using Amatersu is for the same reason he doesnt spam Shinra tensei STLYE. Kishi likes each hcarter to have their own unique fighting style which is like their trade mark. Sasuke is the one who will be using Amaterasu heavily so he doesn't want Madara to steal his thunder in that regard. Its the same reason Sasuke doesn't use shadow clones because that's Naruto's style.
Originally Posted by Arbitrary
Keep in mind it was Obito telling the story not Madara so the so called facts where not first person but a hand me down story.
This chapter in fact makes more sense cause if Izuna was perfectly healthy why didn't he take Madara's eyes. It make sense that he was dying so he left Madara his eyes to protect the clan as both their vision was getting weaker.
I get that, Paul. :)
It's just that, with you missing out one comma (after Izuna) I think changes the message for me.
Well, spaming it on fodder Senju would only limit his power, which he needed to push back Hashirama, or at least keep up with him. Besides, there is no mention that Madara has Amaterasu and he likely doesn't. Only Itachi and Sasuke had it, because that's the link between brothers, their close genetics to each other gave birth to the same MS jutsu (which means that it is likely that Izuna and Madara shared one MS jutsu as well), while their other MS jutsu were completely different, not counting Susanoo which seems to be the universal final MS jutsu for all Uchiha. All other Uchiha with MS had completely different jutsu than Sasuke and Itachi.
Originally Posted by paulbee
By looking at a Complete/Final Susano itself, you can notice that it's tools are composed of the other MS jutsu (that's why the user needs to first master 2 MS jutsu, in order to awaken Susanoo). For Sasuke and Itachi Amaterasu composed the shield (it's properties to burn all matter, is probably what gives the shiled it's impregnability), while their swords are made respectively from (advanced) Kagetsuchi and (advanced) Tsukuyomi.
Now take a look at Madara's Susanoo. It's weapons are a manifestation of raw physical power and raw physical defense (the cloaked mode for defense and the twin sword mode for attack), which might mean that his MS jutsu had something to do with enhancing his physical capabilities. It's even possible that the fan absorb-counter, is what really is Madara's MS jutsu (after all, we know that Obito knows all of Madara's jutsu, yet he didn't use or couldn't use it). If you think about it, the cloaked version of Susanoo might have absorbed the Kage's final combo attack, which in turn gave power to cut mountains to it's other Susanoo mode ?
@pualbee I see what u are saying but mostly everything tobi said was lie and out of order
Originally Posted by bankai
What is it doing in the Data book ?????????
Are we to understand that the databook is NOT Canon?
If so What is the point of the Data book?
Just to be clear.
Izuna, who gives his eyes to his older brother, eventually dies in battle.
When I read the statement above, I understood that...
1) Izuna eventually dies in battle.
2) Izuna gives his eyes to Madara.
Meaning, those weren't really lies or out of order (which is why the data book has them) from Obito either.
It's clear that with those statements, we are given a good view on how things happened.
Only to be further illustrated, albeit incompletely, from the previous chapter.
1) Izuna is mortally wounded in a battle against the Senjuu.
2) Madara and him escapes.
3) He gives his eyes to Madara.
4) Dies eventually from the damages he had in the battle, hence the eventually dying from it phrase from the data book.
Those two commas are what led me to the above statements.
With these said, I think there isn't much of a mistake around here.
I'm just posting these so you guys know where my thoughts are coming from. :D
Assuming that the translation is good enough to consider what is written there as correctly, it just might be that those Data Books are based on the current level of the story. Basically, the databook itself bases on lies within the narutoverse, until it is revealed be a lie... well some data is just unreliable and perhaps we are to consider the Databooks, as books with information within Narutoverse, rather than books about narutoverse form the readers world. That would be pretty cool if you ask me. Besides, IIRC, it was never stated that Databooks are canon :P.
Originally Posted by paulbee
I think the databooks are reference points for readers to keep track of everything at the time they are written. For instance, if there are misleading clues about Tobi's identity, the books will help us keep track of those, because we are meant to be aware of all these plot points and manga details that, while perhaps inaccurate within the future plot, are critical to appreciate the story as it was intended to be read at the time. For instance, the Minato vs. Tobi is much more suspenseful when Kishi fills it with ambiguous hints about Tobi/Madara, leaving the readers pondering... some readers would miss these hints, or get confused at what exactly Kishi is implying; the databooks clarify that.
In the case of Madara/Izuna and the statement of "Sacrificed for his clan" and the implication that Madara stole his brother's eyes... once again, we are meant to view Madara as a monster. If Obito's version is somewhat reliable, even the Uchiha believed that Madara greedily stole his brother's eyes (and likely Itachi heard this version of the tale). At any rate, that is the version of the story Kishi was building up, and it shaped the way the characters acted when they heard the story; Sasuke initially must have felt sympathetic towards the brother whose eyes were stolen, as that's the role Itachi was creating for Sasuke, even though afterwards it turned out that Sasuke was in fact reliving the role of Madara. It still made Sasuke doubt the integrity of Tobi when Obito told "his" story... did any of us really believe Tobi when he said 'My brother willingly gave up his eyes. What kind of older brother would hurt his younger brother?" Or some such. Even if it turned out to be the way things played out, we weren't meant to assume that.
The databooks are only tools for theorycrafting to the extent that Kishi wants them to be; they keep track of the clues he leaves, and he reserves the right to say, "Although actually, that character was mistaken" or reveal that the implied order of events (I.e, Izuna giving up his eyes and THEN being mortally wounded) was not the case.
Btw, I REALLY want a new databook to more accurately reflect the stats of the new characters... there has to be some better way to quantify things so we can measure characters' relative power, since the 1-5 scale is hardly a reliable means of comparison, for reasons discussed to death.
After following Naruto for a LOOOOONNNNNGGGG time, I have grown a little weary of author purposefully misleading Readers. In my view, it is legitimate for the author to keep plots and mysteries hidden till he's ready to reveal them, but I think it illegitimate for him to state things as fact where a character has no purpose in lying whatsoever, and then to back up those facts with extraneous releases, only to willy-nilly say OOPs Gotcha!
As an example, how would you feel if it is revealed 10 chapters from now that Hashirama was lying to Sasuke, and Madara was indeed going blind, and Izuna indeed died in battle? You'd wonder why the Heck Kishi made Hashirama tell such an unnecessary lie?
The Whole Tobi= Madra=Obito debacle was full of instances where Tobi did not need to lie while claiming to be Madara. These examples make one suspect that Kishimoto is still revising his story as he goes.
I guess it's fine if he wants to revise the story, but In my mind It's also fine to Call Him when he does a revision.
Well, some of Obito's lies to Sasuke were to make the Uchiha look more like victims in order to feed Sasuke's hatred of Konoha. Also, Obito lied about things like "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan" because he needed to crush Konan's pride that Nagato, a Shinobi from her country, had awakened the Rinnegan... but Obito couldn't reveal his true identity, even to someone he was about to kill, so he said it as if he were actually Madara.
Originally Posted by paulbee
Then there's the matter of things like saying to Kushina "Do you know how long I have waited for this moment?!" When actually it wasn't very long, just a couple of years at the very most... things like that are indeed pointless and misleading, and are very frustrating.
And things like Obito's tale to Naruto about the Rikudou Lineage and the legacy of hatred... things like "I can see that Hashirama lives on in you, the man I most admired, and hated" (I messed up the quote a bit)... that is such a WTF moment. I believe Obito hates the Senju because they represent faith in humanity/change/peace through love, all of which Obito rejects as empty words that only lead to suffering within reality. However, there's no reason for him to feel personally bitter towards Hashirama, so the act is taking things a bit far. I wonder if seeing Obito's facial expression at the time would help? Or maybe it's more complex, like Obito is examining his own lost "Will of Fire" within Naruto? And of course, Obito's personal "Hashirama" was always Kakashi, and Naruto has inherited a lot of Kakashi's principles (some of which came from Obito).
I suppose since Obito is discussing the ideological conflict that culminated with the battle between his mentor/adoptive identity, Madara, and Hashirama (whose ideals run strongly in Naruto/Konoha), it IS a bit personal for Obito... after all, the man calls himself Madara and wears a mask 24/7, and refuses to acknowledge his own identity...
Maybe I'm trying to read too much into Kishi's cheap tactics, trying to justify the Obito angle in my head and defend the many misdirections. However, It can be fun to re read chapters in hindsight, thinking of what Tobi's statements would mean coming from Obito, not Madara.