Sorry, I did not point out where I was coming from with my posts.
Basically, I read a part of your initial post that felt off more so than the other instances you mention.
Which is why I may have looked like I was discounting everything you laid out.
Hope this clears everything.
apology is needed from my end. i can get off the handle sometimes as naruto and this mangashare forum are my secret and guilty pleasure. plus a girl was mad at me while i was posting. i think i scared away discussion of an otherwise great topic and that edo tensei can be shown to be so
Originally Posted by Arbitrary
ething misunderstood and turned on its head by kishi thanks to the revelations given in 619 and other points.
sorry for my hostile tone.
epic tidbit - orochimaru used murder as a means to cast edo tensei. it was assumed and explained someone bust be sacrificed to exchange for a soul from the pure world. kabuto also follows the principle of murder/sacrifice exchange in his casting of edo tensei as well. currently, orochimaru used zetsu clones to satisfy the edo tensei ritual. the zetsu clones come mainly through hashirama's power. that said, along with edo tensei not being a bloodline limit or doujutsu.. could that mean that the senju trait of vast lifeforce and constitution satisfies the edo tensei ritual when performed by tobirama and/or hashirama's powers? this is actually striking when you tecall flying thundergod. it was minato's technique and he was able to perform it like second nature all by himself. it wasn't a bloodline limit or anything like that but when anybody else attempts flying thundergod it must be done with the assistance of other partners and cast as a group. it's entirely possible that as a senju, tobirama could bring a soul out of the pure world without killing someone or himself because of his special senju traits or if necessary, hashirama's more proactive life-giving powers of mokuton. if having the principles of ftg, then it stands to reason that anybody without special traits suitable to the jutsu will be required to pay a heavier price. if tobirama could cast edo tensei, his own jutsu, without the need to sacrifice a living person then he isn't the foul sinister guy some people jumping the gun are making him out to be. you could even say that orochimaru experimented with hashirama's cells (and collecting tobirama's as well) in order to satisfy the edo tensei's requirements but only later discovered that an actual sacrifice would meet the condition. edo tensei is a tool quite connected to his entire purpose of immortality and tempting for the sake of reviving his parents. et may have been oro's first triumph.
● I would say theres a possibilty that Tobirama developed Edo Tensei to gain an advantage over Uchihas. They had to do something, since Uchihas already had Izanami and Izanagi genjutsus. With Edo Tensei, Tobirama gifted his clan the advantage, they pushed Uchihas in the corner but Hashirama stepped in and proposed a truce and unity. To gain Uchihas trust, Tobirama had to reveal Edo Tenseis secrets including the release-of-its-contract seals. This might be how the 2 clans united.
thank you for the replies. so, in your opinion, how compelling do you think the following connections are?
*uchiha have too potent emotional malfunction when they have a severed bond or lose a loved on.
*tobirama explains that when an uchiha loses their bond/love they become a problem and their feelings take a perverted turn as it boosts their power condiderably.
*when edo tensei was first being introduced in the manga, it was a device specifically to return people someone had loved.
*the manga underscores now that madara had bond with izuna more powerful than sasuke and itachi's. izuna died and as a result, madara became the strongest uchiha.
i want to know if you think that edo tensei was actually created FIRST as a means to resolve uchiha going crazy when their comrades die, especially when madara lost izuna. or if yoy think edo tensei was created primarily as a battle tactic against large numbers.
when you take edo tensei out of a combat context then it makes more sense.
edo tensei returns to life a loved uchiha with the aim of quelling the other uchiha's grief, curse of darkness, and most importantly.. their power.
the caster has control to manipulate by taking away the revived person whenever deemed necessary. it's a good threat to keep an uchiha in line.
like izanami, however, once the proper affirmation occurs, the dead will return to the pure world.
i can't help but strengthen this opinion given the timing of revelations. tobi wants the dead loved ones to exist in a dream. naruto demonstrates the dead loved one carries on inside you spiritually. immediately after this we come to a revived tobirama (tobi being the prefix ala tobi/obito thematic overlap) and we deal with issues of edo tensei and the hokages will be in the impure world long enough to learn naruto's answers.
i think edo tensei and moons eye plan are both equally misguided attempts to keep bonds permanent each with a small reflection of either the uchiha legacy's intentions or senju legacy's intention.
the closing of this ark has been about naruto starting to answer the tough questions that have plagued shinobi of all levels for generations. his answer runs contrary to infinite tsukiyomi and the senju hokage will be stumped when naruto's answers reach him too.
im trying tooth and nail to remove edo tensei as a combat technique and paint it as a hard pressed senju's solution to manage the "curse" he sees in uchiha and likely even just madara losing izuna. finally, i don't think tobirama's level of "moral greyness" was such that he tried to get the upperhand or advantage over uchiha but was a means to pacify or maybe even bribe but not as a weapon of deterrent.
sasuke encountering edo itachi, learning his memories and receiving revelations that developed their bond and opening new paths for sasuke is exactly the kind of thing edo tensei was created to do and is the only success story we know of so far which will sensibly be the counterweight to the failure story of madara and edo izuna
^ Doubt it, because to recall a bond, another one needs to be severed. To bring the dead for a single moment, you need to forsake someone else's existence. Sacrifice one live, to mend the other. This is too contradicting, for it to be made for that purpose, unless we learn that something else could have been used, other than a living human, but that doesn't seem the case (after all, everyone calls it an atrocity, even Madara himself).
ET was made to be used the way it is being used, but there might have been another original jutsu, that ET steams off.
Maximo's idea is pretty good, although we don't know when he created this jutsu. Perhaps it was created so that Tobirama could summon his brother to battle, in case someone powerful appeared, like a crazy eye-powered Uchiha, after all, he had to be prepared for that, just in case.
BTW. I'm waiting to see Tobirama's face when he learns that Madara has been revived using his jutsu, is power upped and on the loose.
I could see Tobirama using Edo Tensei to revive Izuna so that he'd have a Mangekyou-user to help fight Madara... he doesn't seem the type to look for a peaceful method of appeasing Madara, and Madara doesn't seem the type to be appeased by something as crass as his brother being returned in the form of a living corpse. Madara looks down on Edo Tensei.
Madara has stated that Edo Tensei was originally created for essentially Kamikaze purposes. So it's obviously always been a very violent technique aimed at utilizing the zombies' regenerative powers to the fullest.
I see Tobirama using it to revive dead Uchihas just to mess with the Uchihas that's alive, perhaps during battle. He knows of Uchiha's strong feelings of love, so wouldn't that make the ultimate weapon? To target the strong feelings and emotions that the Uchihas once felt when losing their loved one and use it against them?
Surely one will hesitate to fight after seeing their dead friend/relative (e.g. Chouji). Knowing the emo Uchihas, it could impact them more than it did with Chouji when he saw Asuma again. That moment of hesitation is all you need to kill someone in this manga.
Who better to do it to than Madara? He was practically incest with his brother - according to Tobirama.
Keyword from Madara's excerpt: "originally". It was originally created to wipe the battlefield. But it could also be used for other purposes. Perhaps, a back-up technique to use it against Madara by bringing back his much loved brother in order to fight him.
see, i allege madara misunderstood or misrepresented edo tensei as well as being the perfect level of vague. villains often severely get it wrong or fail to see the actual point, such as power meaning used only to protect for good guts, means of destruction for bad guys. i hardly think madara's statement is even a shred authoritative.
Originally Posted by Rlinfamous
@zero, tobirama's statement, "i see my jutsu is easy to mimic" is significant in that his posture and looking down suggest at least a small part of regret as well as never intending it to be used outside of his immediate person and the uchiha dilemma. i also pointed out that the flying thunder god was easy for minato because it being his jutsu he could do it by himself and multiple times in rapid succession. that radically changes when we see that in order for it to be performed by others it must be cast by a group of shinobi each contributing exhaustive focus in order to succeed casting just once! with that in mind, i think tobirama might have been able to cast the jutsu without needing someone to die. hus senju makeup would be capable of injecting enough life to exchange for the life brought from the pure world. basically, grandma chio's "resurrection jutsu" would be closer to tobirama's jutsu as he intended it and chio exclaimed her disgust at edo tensei, providing the subtle link they were aware of each other's jutsu's. heck maybe when tobirama was continuing peace talks or even accompanying hashirama's diplocies, he and chio collaborated ir influenced each other in their special jutsis. chio also said she was the only person able to perform het technique therefore we can have the doir open to tobirama intending his jutsu to be limited or even prohibited in use. chio sacrifices her own life to prevent a soul completing its departure to the pure world but she died herself only because her life forces were dwindling in old age as well as her exhaustion fighting sasori before tending to gaara. tobirama in his prime would probably be able to cast the technique without actually needing to exchange souls but instead only quantitative levels of chakra or life, something his senju lineage grants him abundance of. oro and kabuto therefore do not have senju lineage so they must adapt and use a complete life only possible by killing for it.
the zetsu's working in edo tensei proves either a soul is not needed, only a quanity of life which may result in the exchanged not dying OR that clones are still unique in soul and different individuals. see how slippery it is when you consider 4 identical zetsu's working for edo tensei? it's the first chink in the assumed requirement that a soul be used. just what exactly is the spiritual/chakratic condition and definition of a zetsu clone?
p.s. if indeed edo tensei and chio's jutsu have overlapping and shared history in any form be it contact and collaboration or reacting to news and reports or whatever, if they are linked like that then it's even more interesting :) because you speculate on a group motive, not just tobirama's.
@veLocityyes, you get me. while it may have been used for hostile or malicious intentions, I'm totally willing to believe that, it would work as you say it does, however, it is entirely up to tobirama's character and moral leanings. it's toi soon to say yet but my hunch is he did not use edo tensei the way you suggest. his "for the good of the village " approach paints him as the root cause (pardon familiarity word play) for danzo's direction but on the other hand his will of fire and altruistic teaching of protecting comrades in face of mortality shows he is a root cause for sarutobi as well. having equally contributed to danzo and sarutobi's beliefs and understanding of their village and world makes tobirama quite a complicated character. madara could also have changed tobirama's intentions when using edo tensei. at first, to appease an emo uchiha but later as an outright attack.
^ If something, Tobirama's jutsu is closer to Pain's jutsu that by using 30% of person A's chakra, you can turn person B into that person (like with fake Itachi and Kisame).
The fact that Zetsu can use and mold chakra means that they have spiritual energies and thus soul. An extreme example of that is the Black Zetsu, that has tons of Madara's spiritual energy and mind/knowledge, as he mentioned (it's possible that potentially he can use doujutsu).
The soul is needed, most likely because the balance between the Impure and Pure world needs to be preserved (it might as well be the reason why Nagato could resurrect so many people before their souls crossed to the other world, but would die if he wanted to resurrect even one person whose soul is already there. He even mention that he has still time, to resurrect them, but he can't resurrect people like Jiraya with them).
The living body is used as container and probably as a source of energy needed for it's transformation, since casting ET doesn't seem to affect much the caster's reserves.
oh man, you got me. i foolishly overlooked that the returning soul needs a body. doh! i still stand by the claim tobirama would not necessarily have to take a life to exchange for a life but where he gets the body for the soul as it returns? if hashirama was part or around during any step of tobirama inventing edo tensei then the door is open to less grizzly circumstances since zetsu has proven a changeup in the deal. couple hours away from 620, gosh i hope im not completely wrong and absolute fail.
Originally Posted by Zero