Naruto 612 Discussion / 613 Predictions

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Originally Posted by knife eater

Spoiler!

Well, an interesting wrench to throw into the argument would be to ask if muu and the current tsuchikage are blood related. They are the only ninjas known to use, "bloodline expansion", which in their case is manifest as "dust arts/techniques". There. Is less wiggle room here as you have a third element that must be used instead of just 2 and the odds are worse because it's rare for a ninja to have 3 natural elemental abilities. That being so rare and the fact muu and oonichi could compose the exact same 3 elements to perform dust arts yet where is any other indication they are blood related? They are from the same village from the same time period (with age difference) and oonichi learned the expansion techniques from muu but to my memory and knowledge was neither a son or nephew of muu's.

If that case is true then how much easier it is to accept "bloodline limits" as more open to interpretation and actual performance to unrelated shinobi but having the same elemental capabilities.

In the end i think 2 elements combined to make a tech is not necessarily a bloodline limit but bloodline limits outside of special doujutsus will require two elements. How would you classify black lightning?

The bloodline limit, i think, has been incorrectly assumed and the definition must include the moment where a certain clan or lineage has not only a certain elemental affinity but also a unique way of composing it. Crudely, it could be illustrated that all clans can produce bread but only one special clan can produce toast. So when they produce toast with the common composition of butter or jam you get a breakfast kekkei genkai whereas any other clan will produce an undesirable soft mess not fit for any meal.

Not only that, kekkei genkai outside the doikutsus (sharingan etc.) Should perhaps also be defined by Yin and Yang levels present or required by the technique. Not every water or earth element will be molded the same way as hashirama was the only person able to mold earth or water different from everyone else to produce mokuton.

Bloodline limits were just not adequately defined IMO and should be compared to baking. Backing is almost an exact science and two peoplevusing the exact same ingredients will produce wildly different results in texture and taste depending on measurements of each ingredient, extent of mixture and level of tempurature over time.

My understanding anyway since the simple definition the manga provided was not adequate in preventing confusion or seeming contradiction.

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The manga defined a Bloodline Limit as the ability to combine two elements to make a completely new element (Water + Earth = Wood). You have to be born with it (or genetically modified). That's why you can get two people who are born into the same clan, but only one inherits the Bloodline Limit of the clan (Take Hashirama and Tsunade as an example). It isn't something that can be taught or learned. If it could, Kakashi would be using the Wood Element just like Yamato. Kakashi can use Water and Earth elements just like Yamato, but only Yamato can combine them both to make the Wood Element.

In my opinion, you're just making it more difficult than it really is. If you are born with the Bloodline Limit, cool beans. If not, you just don't have it. The only exception to the rule seems to be with Eye Bloodline Limits (Sharingan/Byakugan) where everyone seems to have it in their clans.

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Originally Posted by Afro Thunda

The manga defined a Bloodline Limit as the ability to combine two elements to make a completely new element (Water + Earth = Wood). You have to be born with it (or genetically modified). That's why you can get two people who are born into the same clan, but only one inherits the Bloodline Limit of the clan (Take Hashirama and Tsunade as an example). It isn't something that can be taught or learned. If it could, Kakashi would be using the Wood Element just like Yamato. Kakashi can use Water and Earth elements just like Yamato, but only Yamato can combine them both to make the Wood Element.

In my opinion, you're just making it more difficult than it really is. If you are born with the Bloodline Limit, cool beans. If not, you just don't have it. The only exception to the rule seems to be with Eye Bloodline Limits (Sharingan/Byakugan) where everyone seems to have it in their clans.

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Did you even read any of the post? Do you understand that in the manga we have had things defined early on, seemingly rigid, only to have it go all loosy goosey later on. For instance, the origin of kyubi, obtaining mangekyo, ...

I took the understanding of how kekkei genkai works according to the manga and added another possible level of insight to justify what we saw this last chapter that caused plenty of people to complain.

I'm sorry, but reciting literal definition has been proven to not hold weight or water concerning kishimoto's storytelling.

Finally, are you going to show me the point where it's revealed that ooniki is related to muu? If i missed that then great, otherwise you have a "bloodline" ability more difficult than 2 elements being taught from one village inhabitant to another.

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Originally Posted by knife eater

Did you even read any of the post? Do you understand that in the manga we have had things defined early on, seemingly rigid, only to have it go all loosy goosey later on. For instance, the origin of kyubi, obtaining mangekyo, ...

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The origin of the Kyuubi: Spoken by people who couldn't possibly know the history behind it. So it was hearsay at best when we look back on it. The same with the origin of the Sharingan coming from the Byakugan; nothing but a rumor in-universe. No one really knows where it started from. Obtaining the Mangekyo: Itachi - "Kill the person closest to you." Aside from having to do it with your own hands not being true, we got a firsthand view of the latter half in action courtesy of Kakashi/Obito.

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Originally Posted by knife eater

I took the understanding of how kekkei genkai works according to the manga and added another possible level of insight to justify what we saw this last chapter that caused plenty of people to complain.

I'm sorry, but reciting literal definition has been proven to not hold weight or water concerning kishimoto's storytelling.

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I noticed, and I'm saying I think you're making it more difficult than need be. What's not to say that all those Bloodline Limit users don't hail from the same respective clans? We know a person with a Bloodline Limit tends to be found in clans among others the same as them (Haku, Kimimaro, Sasuke, Neji/Hinata). We just have to ignore that aspect them all having to be blood-related to one another somehow or other though since that's the only it would work in the Real World......... That is, of course, if there isn't some kinda superpower lottery going on depending on the parents' natural affinities when the child is born, which, if there is indeed no blood relations between two people with the same Bloodline Limit, that's the only way I can think of that occurring.

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Originally Posted by knife eater

Finally, are you going to show me the point where it's revealed that ooniki is related to muu? If i missed that then great, otherwise you have a "bloodline" ability more difficult than 2 elements being taught from one village inhabitant to another.

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Sorry, can't help with that. There was no mention of their relation, and they certainly don't look very related. All we know is they both had the same Bloodline Limit, so Muu taught Oonoki how to go even further and add a third element to the mix. They might hail from the same clan, or the Ninja Gods looked down favorably on them and gave them their abilities out of the superpower lottery.

I wonder what's causing the Juubi to "mature" / transform? Madara and Obito seem to be aware of this property... could it be part of the reason why they've held back its power for the most part so far? Could it be linked to the roots connecting the two Uchiha to the Juubi? Perhaps Natural Energy has something to do with it (it could be absorbing more).

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Originally Posted by Rlinfamous

I wonder what's causing the Juubi to "mature" / transform? Madara and Obito seem to be aware of this property... could it be part of the reason why they've held back its power for the most part so far? Could it be linked to the roots connecting the two Uchiha to the Juubi? Perhaps Natural Energy has something to do with it (it could be absorbing more).

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I was thinking about this. I think it's still part of the same process that was going on behind the shield that Obito put up around it, while it was assimilating the parts together within it. Obito and Madara were just forced to take control and use it before it was entirely ready due to Naruto/9-tails, Killerbee/8-tails, Kakashi, and Guy being stronger than they anticipated.

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Originally Posted by Temperjoke

I was thinking about this. I think it's still part of the same process that was going on behind the shield that Obito put up around it, while it was assimilating the parts together within it. Obito and Madara were just forced to take control and use it before it was entirely ready due to Naruto/9-tails, Killerbee/8-tails, Kakashi, and Guy being stronger than they anticipated.

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I guess I hadn't considered that. It didn't occur to me that the shield would have cracked prior to the Juubi being ready, although I suppose it's already gotten so much larger that it was inevitable. It also fully converted to Natural Energy and stopped reading as the Gedo Mazou from Naruto's sensory perspective, so I assumed that was the distinction that marked the Juubi's emergence as "complete." I guess that was clearly wrong, though, since it's obviously continuing its transformations.

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Originally Posted by Naamean

1/5. Worse than last week: boring and messy

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a bit boring, but I'd give it 3.

@Afro.

All fair points, however, i think it's kishimoto who makes things confusing and the readers are left with speculation and guesswork. I don't think many readers of this forum will have difficulty understanding my point. Simply put, the bloodline limits as pertaining to the combination of elements to produce new elements should not be held strictly to hereditary confinement though should be within that confinement the majority of the time
For me, i see it as a certain clan or family having a genetic predisposition within their chakra system to prodoce a certain element differently than other clans or ninjas. It might be levels of stamina or spirit is different or be caused by the clan's Yin or Yang levels inherited which the use in chakra molding. It's why i compared it to baking, two clans might have exact same ingredients (elemental chakras) but different in amounts. The cake (or jutsu) produced with identical ingredients will be quite different from each clan. The clan that has the odd or special way of composing one or two of those elements might then have a bloodline limit. I think that is the best way for this to work and justifies laser circus spam or teaching black lightning because it shows us that you can teach regulating Yin and Yang when composing elemental chakra. If every aspect is open to regulation then it would be possible for even a few elite shinobi to learn kekkai genkai from other clans so long as the have the elemental affinities and ability to fine tune the chakra molding process for the kekkai genkai.

Finally, this chapter was frustrating because.... kishi displayed motivational scenes pretty ass backwards. He showed an assembled sarutobi clan, the only group mentioned by CLAN BTW, using a non kekkai genkai, a common fire technique. All other groups were introduced AS VILLAGES and you see some using kekkai genkai, if laser circus is indeed a bloodline limit didn't we see ninjas of different colored skin using it?

Again, it's kishimoto that bends his rules or skews with ambiguity, that's the source of confusion, not the discussion afterwards. I understand and respect your pov, though :)

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Originally Posted by knife eater

@Afro.

All fair points, however, i think it's kishimoto who makes things confusing and the readers are left with speculation and guesswork. I don't think many readers of this forum will have difficulty understanding my point. Simply put, the bloodline limits as pertaining to the combination of elements to produce new elements should not be held strictly to hereditary confinement though should be within that confinement the majority of the time
For me, i see it as a certain clan or family having a genetic predisposition within their chakra system to prodoce a certain element differently than other clans or ninjas. It might be levels of stamina or spirit is different or be caused by the clan's Yin or Yang levels inherited which the use in chakra molding. It's why i compared it to baking, two clans might have exact same ingredients (elemental chakras) but different in amounts. The cake (or jutsu) produced with identical ingredients will be quite different from each clan. The clan that has the odd or special way of composing one or two of those elements might then have a bloodline limit. I think that is the best way for this to work and justifies laser circus spam or teaching black lightning because it shows us that you can teach regulating Yin and Yang when composing elemental chakra. If every aspect is open to regulation then it would be possible for even a few elite shinobi to learn kekkai genkai from other clans so long as the have the elemental affinities and ability to fine tune the chakra molding process for the kekkai genkai.

Finally, this chapter was frustrating because.... kishi displayed motivational scenes pretty ass backwards. He showed an assembled sarutobi clan, the only group mentioned by CLAN BTW, using a non kekkai genkai, a common fire technique. All other groups were introduced AS VILLAGES and you see some using kekkai genkai, if laser circus is indeed a bloodline limit didn't we see ninjas of different colored skin using it?

Again, it's kishimoto that bends his rules or skews with ambiguity, that's the source of confusion, not the discussion afterwards. I understand and respect your pov, though :)

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I can't help but be sympathetic with Knifeater's thoughts. It just seems to me that Kishi is revising what was previously well accepted doctrine.

There was a time when what was stated in the Chapter was Gospel and The Data Books' comments reflected the Truth of the Naruto Universe. Well as Afro Insinuated some of the Comments in The Chapters were not neccessarily reflective of fact, and could be interpreted as common misconceptions by people living inside the Covers of the Magazine. However, Kishi has freely aloud these "misconceptions to dominate reader's perceptions for a Decade. To me this smacks of Revisionism.

In any case, A Kekkai Genkkai IS THE SAME as a Blood line limit, and has always been defined as an inherited (genetic) trait, regardless of the mechanics of how a Jutsu is actually performed. A kekkai Genkaai used to be bound within families or clans. I guess that the current chapter does not actually upturn our former conceptions of KG's but it does seem to come close to doing so.

Question, what would happen if a hashirama level mokuton technique which suppresses or steals chakra.. was used against madara who can absorb jutsu with his rinnegan? I wouldn't ask regarding any other elemental or doukutsu because obviously madara can absorb it, however, mokuton seems to a significant exception because of how integral it is to the mazou and also its special intertwining relationship with strong life forces and Yang. Just curious, also, if obito used mokuton against madara would it be different than if hashirama used it against a rinnegan wielding madara? Obito also has the rinnegan, can he use it to nullify madara's absorption abilities at any time?

For me it's a tough call whether mokuton would be special or not when it negotiates an opposing rinnegan absorption.

Another question.. can rinnegan enhance or perform outright the gathering of natural energy and producing sage chakra? Can it absorb a sage chakra attack and allow the chakra to be used by the rinnegan holder?