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Originally Posted by rinnebadass

good point zero. however, nidaime was suposed to be "the" water element user, able to create huge amounts of water using just the air, etc etc. he was prepared for them. he knew how many of them were there... he knew who they were.

i dont know all of nidaime's abilities. But with perfect water based ninjutsu, maybe earth element, space time techs and edo tensei??? c'mon.. he was also an expert in tactics, otherwise he wouldnt've been kage right?


i thought that nidaime was going to do the same against those 20 elite shinobis, or:

ambush them, space time jutsu, amazing water jutsu, edo Tenseid shinobis to fight for him against the others, and retreat.

or.. due to the situation, he was already really tired from previous battles???

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Considering the situation that the 2nd was in, it's fairly safe to assume that he and his squad had been fighting for a while. He can't pull off all of his amazing techniques if he's strapped for chakra. He wouldn't need to be a decoy if that was the case. Yea, he was probably an expert in tactics, but I bet his enemies were no slouches either. It's the middle of a war and these Cloud ninjas have trapped the 2nd Hokage and his group. You don't send regular jackoff ninjas to confront Kages, so the group of Cloud ninjas could have only been some of the best in the Cloud village at the time. The way you talk, it's like you think the 2nd Hokage was beaten without putting up any kind of fight by 18 genin level Cloud ninjas and 2 freaks when it was more than likely 18 Jounin level Cloud ninjas and 2 freaks. 2 freaks that all we know about them right now is that they've got Kyuubi tainted chakra. If anything, that little note more than likely played a part in the 2nd's defeat (assuming he died there). But the 2nd surely took more than a few down with him too.

well... i agree with everything you said aga bomba.
same goes for afro.

still, lets wait and see what really happened there.

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Originally Posted by rinnebadass

pow

i know that it is my assumption. whats your assumption about this subject?

still, he, most likely wasnt facing the strongest 20 of cloud village (no raikage, no individual name besides kinkaku, etc). and when one fights one entire village, obviously he will face not only the 20 strongest but all of them.

at least, we hope that he was the one to kill the catwoman brothers.

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As many have pointed out the guys hunting him where not run of the mill ninja as they where a special elite tracking squad. Assuming its the same Edo brothers in the manga now they probably had special powers.

Its very possible the 2nd took most of them out but ran out of chakra and was weakened and went down fighting. However assuming it was the 2 brothers I'm not sure they died there as they recognized the 3rd Raikage's Lightning tattoos on Darui. The 3rd Raikage would have been similar age to Sarutobi still young probably not a Kage yet.

I think this is what made them legends in the Cloud, killing the 2nd Hokage.

well the point is it would be lame to show nidaime faced the 20 elite shinobi's alone,,probably either he killed them all and died or like the sarutobi and others also helped the nidaime..

coz i find it hard to accept when naruto or yondaime kills so many gangs..

wont it be against the will of fire if saru, danzou,kagami etc all had left nidaime face it alone.. being said that saru was to be next hokage ,, and we saw saru fighting oro and EDT like ass in 70 years of age .. i seriously cant believe they would have left nidaime to die.

atleast they would have come back to save nidaime ..or
nidaime would let the people go alive after killing him..

man kishi is killing my thoughts and likings..

till 500 of manga i had always thought shodaime,nidaime and yondaime everyone where cool.. now it seems they arent that cool ..after introducing madara, muu, tscuchikage..
everyone are powerful asses..
:)

atleast let kishi let nidaime not die that way, atleast either nidaime would die with killing everyone or nidaime and saru&co joins to kill everyone..

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Originally Posted by enochdickson

well the point is it would be lame to show nidaime faced the 20 elite shinobi's alone,,probably either he killed them all and died or like the sarutobi and others also helped the nidaime..

coz i find it hard to accept when naruto or yondaime kills so many gangs..

wont it be against the will of fire if saru, danzou,kagami etc all had left nidaime face it alone.. being said that saru was to be next hokage ,, and we saw saru fighting oro and EDT like ass in 70 years of age .. i seriously cant believe they would have left nidaime to die.

atleast they would have come back to save nidaime ..or
nidaime would let the people go alive after killing him..

man kishi is killing my thoughts and likings..

till 500 of manga i had always thought shodaime,nidaime and yondaime everyone where cool.. now it seems they arent that cool ..after introducing madara, muu, tscuchikage..
everyone are powerful asses..
:)

atleast let kishi let nidaime not die that way, atleast either nidaime would die with killing everyone or nidaime and saru&co joins to kill everyone..

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Your not getting it the 2nd Hokage was sacrificing himself to save them as they all knew going against these 20 ninja was not a possibility even Tobirama. Thats goes to show you how dangerous of a situation that they where in. If the ninja trailing them where weak cannon fodder of course they would have taken them out. This was his will of fire protecting the "King" the seeds of the next generation so they could blossom.

It was Tobirama himself who used some unnamed sensor jutsu to detect them. He knew they where an elite fighting force. Sarutobi and Danzou where probably Naruto and Sasuke's age but not as powerful (Next generation surpasses the previous). They represented the next generation like the Konoha 11 do now but their skills where not fully developed yet just like the K-11.


- It would be like if Gai's Team ( Ten-ten, Neji & Lee) came under attack by the 7 Swordsmen of the Mist including Kisame. Gai's team may be strong but against that many elite shinobi even they would probably fall.


- Also those Kinkaku force brothers seem to have a special power related to the Kyuubi that the 2nd may have had no defense against. Thats of course assuming they are the ones involved in that situation.

Sarutobi was left in charge and he is an A blood type like Lee so would not have disobeyed his sensei's final request and risk everyones life on a suicide quest. The 2nd Hokage dieing to protect his team mates goes to show he walks the walk and died the way a true Kage should defending others. What would have been better him using little girl as a shield and running away escaping by himself sacrificing his students. According to Danzou yes as he sees the world from a top down perspective and the lower ranks should sacrifice themselves for the sake of the leader.

The 2nd was elite but hes not invincible no ninja is no matter how powerful thats what makes this manga great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by enochdickson

well the point is it would be lame to show nidaime faced the 18 elite shinobi's + 2 freaks who's chakra is tainted with the Kyuubi's alone,,probably either he killed them all and died or like the sarutobi and others also helped the nidaime..

coz i find it hard to accept when naruto or yondaime kills so many gangs of fodder ninja..

wont it be against the will of fire if saru, danzou,kagami etc all had left nidaime face it alone.. being said that saru was to be next hokage ,, and we saw saru fighting oro and EDT like ass in 70 years of age .. i seriously cant believe they would have left nidaime to die.

atleast they would have come back to save nidaime ..or
nidaime would let the people go alive after killing him..

man kishi is killing my thoughts and likings..

till 500 of manga i had always thought shodaime,nidaime and yondaime everyone where cool.. now it seems they arent that cool ..after introducing madara, muu, tscuchikage..
everyone are powerful asses..
:)

atleast let kishi let nidaime not die that way, atleast either nidaime would die with killing everyone or nidaime and saru&co joins to kill everyone..

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Made some changes to note the difference between the kinds of ninjas the 2nd faced versus the kinds of ninjas we see any named character decimating on a regular basis. And considering it was the in the midst of a war, those 20 ninjas were very likely not the kind of fodder you'd see being decimating on a regular basis. As I mentioned before, you don't send regular jackoff ninjas to deal with Kages.

Also, the Will of Fire is for the younger generation to surpass the older generation. The older generation is the support for that to happen. Staying true to that notion, this is what the 2nd did by letting his younger subordinates escape. They would have all died anyway if they stayed to help. That's the reason why they needed to use a decoy.

Enoch,

Think of the Lightning Twins as Akatsuki level Ninjas, and some of their support as Gai/Kakashi level.

thanks to you guys, POW, AFRO and PAUL.. for explaining..

but i was always thinking that tobirama could be yondaime's father .. and thats why i wanted him to be powerful ..nyways :(

really paul?

2 akatsuki level ninja

some as gai and kakashi level ninja

plus raikage\raikage's bodyguards and family\other special army.

humm.. if that's true, how they managed to always get their asses kicked by konoha in every attempt to invade the village?
(even after minato was dead)

Agreed with everything what POW has said.. if we assume that Ginkaku and Kinkaku were one of those 20 shinobi's, then it's very possible that it went like this:

- Ginkaku and Kinkaku with their Kyuubi's chakra were the key leaders in overpowering Nidaime..
- the rest of the team were probably 6 teams; 1 team consists 1 Jounin and two Chuunin's. ( don't forget that it was WAR, so they couldn't send 18 Jounin's with probably S- class calibur ninja's -> Gin- Kinkaku. )

The 6 Jounin's with their chuunin's were lets say, the distraction and Gin- Kinkaku overpowered him in the end. Nidaime's Suiton Element was his advantage against those lightning shinobi's, but even then; he was outnumbered by great ninja's. When you send 20shinobi's to take care of a Hokage, you'll send high calibur ninja's with the necessary skills for owning the Kage.

@ Rinnebadass

Ginkaku / Kinkakhu were probably S- class shinobi's.. but I don't dare to say that those Jounins were the same calibur like Kakashi or even Gai. Kakashi is a special case, he's genius that comes along once a lifetime and a beast like Gai with his stamina / speed / strenght is also very rare.

BUT that doesn't mean that those Jounins weren't powerful.. I wouls so, more of Asuma's league and some of them had to have high strategic skills. Like I said; you won't send random ninja's, if you want to kill a Kage. Raikage told us in the latest chapter, why Konoha was so difficult to defeat.. this means that they had never possessed ninja's like Shikaku, Shikamaru or even Kakashi. There strategic skills weren't at the same level like Konoha's, but it was enough for countering Nidaime, overpowering and killing him in the end.